Actions Per Minute (APM)

[HumeAegis]

What number qualifies as "good" APM? I am averaging about 96.

I notice some people have in the 200s, but from replays it looks like they just spam rally points and scroll through their units. :annoyed:

[gonepostal]

I'd say 150+ qualifies as good apm, 250 is decent, but many good players survive with just 150. Of course there are several exceptions to this, there are a few very good players with very low apm, but that is because they play very smart, and focus their play on outhinking their opponent and countering him(mass grunts cant really counter destroyers no matter if the orc have 300 apm while the ud have 10 for example)

[Abuse.Craft]

It all depends, especially on the race and play-style. Some players, like myself, click accurately rather than spasmodically, and require one click rather than, say, three, to target a unit. So, naturally, my APM is going to be three-times lower than a spasmodic clicker, but who is the better micro'er? Well, not taking in position or armors, I would since I could click, and move on to the next item of the battle whereas my opponent is, of course, 3x-steps behind me, where x is the number of steps I have accomplished. But, to be honest, APM doesn't matter when it comes to micro. Positioning (hills, flanking, etc.), targeting (armors, weapons, etc.), and speed (of reflexes, and of mind) are the three most contributing factors. APM represents only one of those, and not even that as a whole (EG, reflex-speed).

[NIGHT_echoes]

a noob with HIGH apm is actually a panic,nervous,etc. player.hehe

[RollingWave]

APM depends on the individual player.... and although better player generally have a higher APM... too many exceptions come around (good player with low apm or lousy player with ridiculasly high apm) to really make apm all that relevent... and in the end for most ppl you can only improve ur apm marginally unless u totally don't know how to use the hotkeys or play the game or you implement some serious spammage tactics... so i wouldn't bother.........

Just a note... i'm lvl 21 with 50 ish apm (someitmes even 40 ish in long games where ppl either hide farms or turtle)... i've faced many easy wins where afterwards I checked and they had 200 apm wtf -_-.. the didn't micro for shit either... at least it didn't felt like they are doing much more except attack moving and using their hero skills....

[Ace_Balasador]

it depends, just like CPU processors, higher clock speed is not always higher work done...

[BonJar]

How can you check your apm? :O please answer someone

[Abuse.Craft]

http://www.bwchart.net/us/w3changes.php


Please use search & the FAQ. They are provided for a reason.

[Sjanten]

having high apm-count is not the same as beeing "gosu"...
a player who makes more accurate decisions is what makes a "gosu"..
ex: 300 apm with , say 100 good moves is far worse then having 160 apm of all good moves...if you understand what i mean..

[YeS_MiLorD]

the more ull play vs gosus and when ur micro reaches the limits of ur apm
apm starts to rise

same as to more ull play vs noobs & AI or play rarely ur apm will fall

ladder games = every day new face
(each player has different style of gaming)

if this won't happen or ull play vs same skilled player each game
ull start pto overplaying him by getting better and winning
with lower and lower micro each time (vs AI)
ur APM will fall....

[AccountCraft]

Actions Per Minute.

Think about that for a while. A minute has 60 seconds. So someone with 200 APM is making more than 3 actions per second. Not only is that physically very difficult, it also is likely to be useless most of the time, hence "spam".

Anything between 30 to 60 APM average throughout the game, is believable. In the heat of battle, the figure might jump to around 180 APM. If anyone can sustain more than that much throughout the entire game, they're spamming.

[Abuse.Craft]

06-10-2004, 06:41 PM The first post creation time. Why are we still posting? o.O

[UnLuCkY_BoY]

It all depends, especially on the race and play-style. Some players, like myself, click accurately rather than spasmodically, and require one click rather than, say, three, to target a unit. So, naturally, my APM is going to be three-times lower than a spasmodic clicker, but who is the better micro'er? Well, not taking in position or armors, I would since I could click, and move on to the next item of the battle whereas my opponent is, of course, 3x-steps behind me, where x is the number of steps I have accomplished. But, to be honest, APM doesn't matter when it comes to micro. Positioning (hills, flanking, etc.), targeting (armors, weapons, etc.), and speed (of reflexes, and of mind) are the three most contributing factors. APM represents only one of those, and not even that as a whole (EG, reflex-speed).

amen.U resumed what i wanted to say
Sometimes hig apm means that the opponent have a laggy connection, like myself =/

[Sword]

@ AccountCraft if a player is playing with both his hands(which is what everyone does) he can multi-task and hence 3 actions per second(around 180-200 apm) is not physically too difficult, especially considering you are using at least 2 or 3 fingers on your left hand pressing different hotkeys simultaneously.

[Abuse.Craft]

Lol funny you bring that up Sword -- I play with one hand. Diabetes rendered my right hand disabled so that (only temporarily; slowly been improving over the last year, year and a half) and I must say that AccountCraft is correct... even if you can get 6 actions persecond, there isnt that much that needs to be done. 3 Actions is all that is required on average -- more in battle, less everywhere els.e

[UnLuCkY_BoY]

Lol funny you bring that up Sword -- I play with one hand. Diabetes rendered my right hand disabled so that (only temporarily; slowly been improving over the last year, year and a half) and I must say that AccountCraft is correct... even if you can get 6 actions persecond, there isnt that much that needs to be done. 3 Actions is all that is required on average -- more in battle, less everywhere els.e

omg, this must have a hug impact in your micro o.o
Wtf is that man?Now diabates disable the right hands?
Ive met a lot of people that have diabetes and doesnt have one hand immoble o.O

[bbdvz]

I'd say 150+ qualifies as good apm, 250 is decent, but many good players survive with just 150. Of course there are several exceptions to this, there are a few very good players with very low apm, but that is because they play very smart, and focus their play on outhinking their opponent and countering him(mass grunts cant really counter destroyers no matter if the orc have 300 apm while the ud have 10 for example)

I don't get how you can say 150 is good and 250 is decent..

[Kathandrion]

aaahh the never-ending apm argument. My opinion: While it is POSSIBLE to be good without high apm, I don't think it is possible to be gosu without at least 180 apm or korean gosu without at least 250 (note that korean gosu is > regular gosu). The things they pull off REQUIRE high apm i.e. harrassing opponents base while defending their own, fast/accurate surrounds/blocks, fast expoing while harrassing, purchasing items quickly etc etc.

[Abuse.Craft]

Unlucky, when you take care of it it doesnt give you problems -- I didnt, and it caused me to lose the feeling in my right hand -- they didnt amputate though, since I was slowly regenerating nerve cells (I think thats what they said, it was a long time ago when I was like 9 or 10)

[Mugaro]

APM can make a difference, and it can't. Depends on you and your style of play. If you play normally, and don't spam, I'd say that APM matters. If you do spam, APM doesn't mean anything. But if all the actions you make are good actions that will really help you, I'd say your APM is very important.

[Supud]

anything above 250 pretty pointless in wc3 :\

[stevey]

I've got a first person VOD of WCB_Rainbow playing ReX.Scorpio in one of the Korean leagues, which shows what you've gotta do to get 250-300 apm. He constantly cycles through his control groups but he's always doing something, like creeping whilst scouting whilst getting mercs whilst doing his base, he does 4/5 seperate things that takes me like 10/15 seconds almost instantly.

[fiRe.power]

I've got a first person VOD of WCB_Rainbow playing ReX.Scorpio in one of the Korean leagues, which shows what you've gotta do to get 250-300 apm. He constantly cycles through his control groups but he's always doing something, like creeping whilst scouting whilst getting mercs whilst doing his base, he does 4/5 seperate things that takes me like 10/15 seconds almost instantly.

yup that is exactly what i hav said in some 'apm topic' before;p
i mean bout tainbow vod;d
it was on schroet forums i think but i cant find it any more:(

btw watching vods can u really motvate to micro more :P

[GummyBear]

higher apm doesn't make u better. but having a high apm isnt a bad thing either. but remember this, many high lvls spam alot. i avg about 95-150. i'd say having around 100 means ur doing wut u need to be doing and over that, either u have a big battle or ur spamming.

[RiceAbuse]

low apm + good micro is sometimes cool

[prime2832]

You can have apm anywhere from the 40s-60s in a game (like me) and be fine. After you know you have won the game, but your opponent does not quit, your APM might lower then, and then your average APM will lower. In a big battle (even match food wise), apm should get to around 80, maybe higher. You don't need 100+ apm to win.

[bbdvz]

I've got a first person VOD of WCB_Rainbow playing ReX.Scorpio in one of the Korean leagues, which shows what you've gotta do to get 250-300 apm. He constantly cycles through his control groups but he's always doing something, like creeping whilst scouting whilst getting mercs whilst doing his base, he does 4/5 seperate things that takes me like 10/15 seconds almost instantly.
rainbow gets around 350 in leagues..

[bbdvz]

higher apm doesn't make u better. but having a high apm isnt a bad thing either. but remember this, many high lvls spam alot. i avg about 95-150. i'd say having around 100 means ur doing wut u need to be doing and over that, either u have a big battle or ur spamming.

I can safely say that it is impossible to be gosu in korea without having at least 150 apm (check[frienz])

[prime2832]

Asia is the best server because they play the most (that doesn't make them the most talented, for instance if US East played as much as them they could possibly be better). I can be gosu on Asia server with having an average of 55 apm. Apm doesn't mean much in this game (strats/micro is what the game is about).

[Abuse.Craft]

APM however is an indication of micro, no prime? And I don't think you can be gosu on Asia... I have yet to see a ladder rec of you; hell I doubt you could be gosu on USWest (the worst server IMO; Azeroth is only slightly above that) much less Asia... APM indicates your ability to multitask, and to a limited degree your ability to micro.

Sorry for what might be considered flames guys but I tire of seeing Prime posting "Im gosu" every where and then using that to support APM doesn't mean much.

[prime2832]

If you micro right in battle (trying to save low HP units, using spells, etc), you should be fine. APM doesn't matter as long as you do this. I don't play ladder cause I like to play custom games so obs can watch me own people. However my friend k.Wut who uses the same strats as me plays ladder. Remember, its about the strats, not the player (I just hope he has good enough micro like me so he can stay undefeated in games like me).

[UnLuCkY_BoY]

If you micro right in battle (trying to save low HP units, using spells, etc), you should be fine. APM doesn't matter as long as you do this. I don't play ladder cause I like to play custom games so obs can watch me own people. However my friend k.Wut who uses the same strats as me plays ladder. Remember, its about the strats, not the player (I just hope he has good enough micro like me so he can stay undefeated in games like me).

well, he have the same apm as u, use same strats......what can sure me that isnt u just smuring around and dont wanna that we see your stats?

[prime2832]

I do show my strats off to you people, in custom games and then I post the replays. He has around the same apm as me (he doesn't click super fast like me), and he used to use generic noob strats but I told him my strats and he uses them now.

[UnLuCkY_BoY]

I do show my strats off to you people, in custom games and then I post the replays. He has around same apm as me (he doesn't click fast like me), and he used to use generic noob strats but I told him my strats and he uses them now.

prime, what time is it here where u live exatcly now?

[prime2832]

Right now it is exactly 4:46 pm according to my watch.

[Sjanten]

may i point you all in the direction of cygnus' last audio.. he goes over the APM-shit and so on..

[Abuse.Craft]

Well I havent seen the replay but I just want to point out that Cygnus is good but not gosu. I appreciate his stuff on strategy and stuff but as he himself said in the Grubby-bullshit Audio, he isnt that great @ micro (APM being grouped with that) so I dont appreciate his take on that aspect of the game as I might would otherwise.

[Merlyn]

"It's not your APM, it's how you use your APM."

Says me.


Because I can.

[bbdvz]

Asia is the best server because they play the most (that doesn't make them the most talented, for instance if US East played as much as them they could possibly be better). I can be gosu on Asia server with having an average of 55 apm. Apm doesn't mean much in this game (strats/micro is what the game is about).

OK go get top 100 in asia and submit your reps to replays.net so everyone can see your gosu 55 apm in action GO

[Abuse.Craft]

For once... <3 for bbdvz

[prime2832]

I have more fun playing on the Azeroth server so I can teach my noob opponent how to play. Unfortunately on Asia they won't understand my language well or at all. They use different language keyboards from us so they don't get the English language displayed on their screen when someone sends it with an English keyboard so this means I won't be able to teach them how to play during a game, so I won't have fun laddering with them. I enjoy owning noobs in custom while obs watch, I don't think I'll be switching to ladder anytime soon.

[cokeordeath]

it seems to me that players with very high apm either spam control groups (ie just sit and hit 123123123123123123123123) or they have their base control grouped so theyre macroing at the same time as theyre microing. that way they dont have to think about what they're doing they just press the hotkeys.

i hope that made sense ;)

[Piscinex]

Winning matters, APM means nothing.

[prime2832]

Exactly

[Demongod86]

Okay, APM means nothing if you spam, as has been said. But as Cygnus put it, up in the pro leagues, the APM means something because as other people have said, rainbow or whoever was harassing, defending his base, hiring mercs, expanding, basically nothing was idle for him and to constantly have everything going requires a ton of APM. All of that APM isn't so much completely micro as it is utter multitasking, and when you're able to multitask circles around your opponent, that's when you win and they lose.

[doomflama]

to be gosu, you have to have apm, because you have to always be doing something, most normally people including myself are often slightly idle evry so often for a few secs doing nothing. I average 150-200 apm, and usualy out micro mostof my opponents i play, but my strats arn't the best ):. But I'd say 1 bad move = like 10 good moves. basicly if i can do things two X as fast as my opponent, id say i defintly have an advantage their.

[Abuse.Craft]

Well Demon, I agree with your statement but let me make 1 minor addition: APM does still mean something but it changes meaning between the two -- at first it is a tool to indicate micro but when you start spamming it indicates your ability to micro & macro (if you consider macro to be anything external of microing... controlling your base, producing units, gathering resources, TRAINING resources (read further on for more info).)


“Minerals and Gas are the resources that most players think in terms of. Although these are central to the game, you also need to think in terms of concentration. I define concentration as time that a player has to spend focusing on a task during the game. Expanding is a high concentration task, especially if you are Protoss. Attacking certainly has a high concentration level, and the more concentration you put into an attack, the higher the effect. Even scouting carries a high associated cost. One big difference between "Someone who is really good" and someone who is #1 is knowing when you need to watch a battle, and when you don’t, and recognizing that your opponent also has a finite amount of concentration to draw from. There are a number of techniques for minimizing concentration costs (i.e. hot-keying buildings, using magic spell hot keys, queuing attacks, etc.), but everything you do has some intangible concentration cost. I would argue that as you get better at Starcraft, you go into a match with a larger innate concentration income/second. :P It is very possible when doing multiple coordinated attacks at different locations to use your superior concentration reserve (if you have it) to decimate an enemy who is tied with you in terms of unit control and tangible resources. Although I'm sorry to say this, concentration is basically talent. Playing a lot of games slowly raises it, but its something some people have a lot of and some people don’t. It’s kinda like fast sprint ability in running: you can train up and become a great long distance runner, but for sprinting, there’s always that talent based barrier–you can slowly improve it, but everyone has a limit. I’m sure that someone will push me off #1 who has more innate talent, along with the same skills...

“The best way to train concentration, as Visage has reminded me just now over MIT chat, is to play 2 on 1s and 3 on 1s (multiple opponents vs. you). I can often pull 3 on 1s, and certainly 2 on 1s, and really the only reason I can do this is my ability to multitask. Also, team melee is an interesting game as it involves doubled concentration reserves on both sides... well almost doubled since its not one mind thinking at once and they have to communicate...”

Whether you, as a player, spend your concentration resources on the large scale or the small depends on which game is at hand and your personal style. In either case, the same principles are at work. On one level or another, thou shalt concentrate thy fire and divide and conquer thine enemy!

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_AoW4-DivideAndConquer.htm

[cokeordeath]

i am very confused now.... ;)

[Sword]

Well one thing that puzzles me is that different APM programs give different results I don't know which one to trust..............

[DuckDeath]

My apm varies a lot in the different parts of a game. In battles it normally is between 160 and 240 somewhere. A lot of this is spamming move-command and nuking. I find it better to spam move in most situations, especially when saving a hero, because the pathing is FULL of faults.

[LostBoy]

i got 55 apm w00t

[Abuse.Craft]

Sword... http://wcresources.net.tf thats my website, there are some APM counters up there all of which are respectable.

[rip_shadowfury]

Remember its only averaga apm, imo you should know your max apm not your avg. Imo why is MGs cos they can really screw your micro if you only got 30-50 apm, imo if you have 30 apm average thats bad micro. Yeah it take you 2 sec for cast a strom bolt....and you wounldnt move any other unit. imo you shound have atleast 160 apm when you creep/harras with an army with less then 12 units, with more units higher apm.

[Shurdus]

Asia is the best server because they play the most (that doesn't make them the most talented, for instance if US East played as much as them they could possibly be better). I can be gosu on Asia server with having an average of 55 apm. Apm doesn't mean much in this game (strats/micro is what the game is about).Uh-huh... And I AM gosu on every server around. And I don't ever click...

How could anyone possibly have a good micro if he does not click all that much? Really, you give me the impression that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Shurdus

[dD.Sliva]

APM doesnt matter that much, look at Heman and Angry Korea Man, same apm as me, about 80++ as average. Then again, Kenshin.Werra, :S he gots like 300apm every game he plays. But Heman atleast are clasified a gosu too, in europe, more then kenshin so..
APM is nothing, When I play, I click one time on the unit, one time were I want t he unit to go, I click 4 on the keyboard and maybe G for a ghoul.
I harasses and creeps at the same time. I'm level 21 on Northrend but I've won many games vs levels about 30. about 10 levels higher then me, in AT me and my mate met Grubby and Fury, They had like, over twice the apm we had, still we made a tough fight for them (guess their fiend taccs aint that good vs a MG masser:P ) But in the end we lost like h*ll :D
So APM doesnt mean anything that much, just for gosus showing their clicking skills^^

[Shurdus]

yadda yadda
So APM doesnt mean anything that much, just for gosus showing their clicking skills^^Indeed. Plus with all the rally point spamming it hardly says anything about anything but clicking skills - which is a really impressive feat all by itself of course. ;)

Shurdus

[TheUndeadMage]

how can i find out my APM?

[Shurdus]

you can start by using the search function on this very forum.

Shurdus

[Abuse.Craft]

Clicking skills, it also shows concentration... ever try spamming while doing a perfect/almost-perfect build order with gosu base positioning?

[Hammar]

I still remember the good'ol-1.14-times when a lvl 12 opponent made me play harder than usual and a lvl 16-24 opponent owned me 85% of the time.
I played a lvl 26 2on2 team today. One of them had an APM of 27 (twenty-seven). Nowadays you can get to lvl 26 AT (and lvl 19 solo) with an APM of 27. And his macro/timing wasn't good either. To sum up: WTF?
But still: APM < 50 is simply not enough imho.
APM 50-80 is average player.
APM 80-150 is good (as far as the RIGHT actions are made)
APM 150-240 is gosu (or a lot of spamming)
APM 240+ is drugs or neural interface instead of keyboard and mouse

Just yesterday I (APM around 110) was playing HU on LT, did a FE, had a nice Rifle-Caster army of 76 supply, encountered my tri-hero UD opponent and just got totally raped by his 65 APM. That should do as an example for taking the "right actions per minute" ^^

[Shurdus]

No. Nor does it matter since spamming rallypoints is hardly anything usefull. And concentration is not easely measured in a way that is relevant to Warcraft - I'd be interested in people proving me wrong on this one. Spamming rallypoints 'while doing a perfect/almost-perfect build order with gosu base positioning' is definitely not a true measure of concentration per se nor does it truly mean anything relevant to Warcraft.

[Abuse.Craft]

Shurdus... if your listening to your little brother crash the house, and trying to get him to stop while microing a very important battle are you going to be microing as well as if you were alone, with silence besides your war3 playing? No, you wouldnt be. And how is doing 4 things (deciding where to put that moonwell, placing your AoW, spamming, producing units) not measuring concentration? It also increases your concentration because at the very least you get used to your BO and can do other things in the process. Also, most players can not macro as they micro, that too is concentration. APM doesn't really measure concentration so that the results are tangible but at levels where your cause your APM to 600 in the first 30 seconds, then we know that you have some high concentration levels (assuming you still did everything else... build stuff @ the right time, producing units, scouting, etc). However, I don't think that *all* gosus (there are always those that do like the fame and flames that this sparks) spam so that they can check it in an APM calculator -- I know that when I spam it prepares my hand (note: hand, not hands. I only have 1 arm) for big battles, it stretches it like a baseball player stretching his arms before a game. It also gets my focus on the game, not on the worries of real life such as having to do laundry in an hour, or whether my little brother is causing enough noise to rouse the dead (gogo headphones hehe). Point is, if your mind is concentrated on warcraft, and spamming undoubtedly requires concentration to still be able to do everything else, you are less likely to forget something or to make a stupid error.