NE cant win UNDEAD!!!!!

[zilk]

hi

i am struggling heavy here
i cant win undead if they go ghouls gargs
even if i go cheesemaster
even if i go warden
even if i get 3 herso warden Dh Panda
i cnat win cos he turtles and gets frenzy gouls with gargs
and get 3 -5 scrolls of healing evertime u sea fok he use scroll
so his army doent get kill u do and then rem the hero nuking
i havent won a NE vs undead since new patch :crybaby:

wel okes if u can give me a start that will beat a good undead when he goes
ghoul+garg DK+Lich+Cl

i would be thankfull
cheers

[Wren]

What the heck is cheesemaster?!

Why not try MGs/archers/glaives with Warden/DH/PotM... Add whatever other units you want... but key is chain taunt and upgrade each unit I mentioned.

[IJJusion]

umm cheesemaster was the beast master

beastmaster is nothing now though, he is useful but in no way overpowered

ghoulz/garg dies fast to 10+archer and with 3-4 hunt (up archers as much as possible) and warden with fok (then ur choice of either panda or dh with immo or breath)

[thegame]

Noooo that many archers wont work against ghouls, get a few hunts, archers, mg's, Warden with Fok and a Potm. Rush him in tier1 and dont let him creep. Try killing a few ghouls and creep to get higher level Fok. There's not much you can do if he gets that many scrolls of healing but if he is spending that much gold on healing items.. then you can most certainly get 2-3 mg's with skin upgrades and maybe a few hippos to take care of those gargs. But remember.. he wouldnt have scrolls of healing in tier2.. take advantage of the Warden at that time.

[IJJusion]

umm i think u do need many archers in this situation useing the hunts for meat and archers to FF on ghouls killz em quick warden fok just adds to it all

then in tier to u get talon and finish up the rest

[IC.Shadow]

Archers ---> mass Crows ---> 2-3 Chims (for towers - keep them away from the Gargs, obviously).

Warden first, just as you said. If you mass Crows, you should be able to win if you have Archer support and high level Fan of Knives. Two level 3 FoK = TONS of red hp Ghouls and Gargs.

[PITagoRAS]

make ne fast expo.U even know how is nearly as impossible to ud stop that.
Fast expo with warden.....rush him to make some dmg.
Get warden/panda......If u get a good hig AoE u can even kill the gargs instantly anulating the heal scroll(!!!!!!)...then get archer/dott/dryad/mg/hippo/chims.......U will have money enough with the expo
If he spends on 3-5 heal scroll so is like 1500 gold only in that.hje will lost a lot of his power and get disadvantage T_T
If u are in a map where expo isnt viable choice, get warden/panda/hunt/archer/dott/mg.......Add few dryads with abolish if he is noob and get dl spam sleep....Keep slowing add hippo/chims to your army......hippo/archer/dott>gargs chims>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ghoos(less than 3 hits to make all ghoos to red hp, chims are the deadliest thing vs a ghoo)
The important is get 3 mgs and spam taunt like a crazy.....he cant pass of your barrier(is nearly as impossible, only if he is lvl 25+) to the archers......u can get some glaives vs ghoos that work it well with the tier 2 upgrade
I know that i will get flamed but for me ne=ud

[BigWeso]

Archers ---> mass Crows ---> 2-3 Chims (for towers - keep them away from the Gargs, obviously).

Warden first, just as you said. If you mass Crows, you should be able to win if you have Archer support and high level Fan of Knives. Two level 3 FoK = TONS of red hp Ghouls and Gargs.

I've never seen mass crows before. I will have to try that.

In responce to thread, obviously FoK owns. You can try to push esp if they are going for fast gargs and only a few ghouls. You can try to hunt/balista push. Late game archer/dott/MG works well. Make sure to get healing/protection scrolls. Potm is good second hero esp if you get a lot of archer/dott. Fast expand is not a bad idea; just make sure to get 2 AP's by it, so the gargs won't bother it.

[spoon-77]

Just make archers/huntress for rush (if they are teching) and for final attack use archers/huntress with MG's and Dryads. Pick w/e hero you like. Keep UD from expanding, and expand urself. GG

[Nafaltar]

Dont mass DotTs sure they own Gargs wih the proper micro but the UD will simply switch over to Destroyers and there is no way your gonna make fficient use of 8+ DotTs then.

Go with Hunts to DotTs to Hippos, tech to tier3 for Glaiveupgrade on hunts and post Master training for DotTs (faerie fire in crow form).

If you use the BM get Bear to lvl2 before anything else. FF DK with bashing bear and Hunts, Ghouls will die on the way and he will be forced to TP out of the way to save DK. Get more Hippos and go creep/expand.

Only have a bad example of this against a lvl 22 UD on Northrend, some biggish mistakes on bothsides but it shows the general concept:

http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=2938

Nafaltar

[dust-removeR]

What the heck is cheesemaster?!

Why not try MGs/archers/glaives with Warden/DH/PotM... Add whatever other units you want... but key is chain taunt and upgrade each unit I mentioned.
mg's sux0r vs goos, taunt is easily countered :(

[foxstoneeety]

i do mass hunts/archers/dryad/talon heroes = warden/potm/brewmaster/naga
if he goes mass gargs then stop hunts if he goes mass ghouls/abos go stop archers and instead of dryads get chims

[Wren]

Taunt is not easily countered... you would have to re focus every second with 6 mgs. GL winning that fight.

[Demongod86]

Or you can do Mr.Cygnus's ffa Strat. Altar/moonwell/tech/moonwell/AoW with just a DH. Clamp up your base architecture so there is only one chokepoint and build 2AoWinds. Just go 6 archers...if he sees archers only, no need for him to go gargs. And even if he DOES go gargs, just mass the shit out of hippogriphs. Also, research taming during your first 6 hippos. Mount hippos and go rape his acos. If done correctly, it's gg right there. Tech to chims while you're at it and also expand by building a few more archers to creep with. By doing this, you get a monstrous economic advantage with which you simply outpower him with. Eventually, you just mass chims on his ass with corrosive and just blow his base to smithereens with mass hippo escort. With his resources tied up and any and all acos dead that aren't protected by mass towers, heck, you shouldn't even let him expand with hipporider harass, there is no way he'll have the economic advantage to fight you head on. So what do you do? You basically IGNORE his hit and runs and just SMASH base with chimeras. In a base race, there is no way that an UD with his hit and runs is going to beat chimeras. Sorry, it doesn't happen.

Or if you want the other way, you just F up the UD army. Warden/panda/naga, fast expanding. Between the three, you have three AoE and 3 slow techniques. Use a massive amount of archers/dotts/dryads, perferrably master dotts so you can spam cyclone on his heroes while his gargs and ghouls alike go straight to hell from the combo of haze/bof/fan/forked lightning, in that order. And after that, the hazed gargs and ghouls will get decimated by dryad slow poison, faerie fire, and archer focus fie. Bear in mind that dryads also cannot be novaed or impaled, and so hold down the line even if your dotts/archers get hit with a well placed impale, the ghouls won't make it into position while your archers are stunned for a little bit, and after your army recovers from impale, it's just 2, click on a garg. 3 click on a ghoul, and 4 S. That is, 2 being archers, 3 dryads, and 4 dotts. 1 is your hero group. Kepe in mind that hazed gargs and ghouls will have their damage greatly reduced when panda is levels 1-3, severely reduced when panda is levels 4 and 5, and almost nullified if he is anything past that. Also, with haze on the ghouls and gargs, the bof at level 3 will do an initial 225 damage with as much following over 5 seconds. Then you have Fan on top of that, and forked lightning as well. The result will be that his low HP units will fall like flies to the utter amount of AoE. If you like using DH, DH/Panda is an AWESOME combo. DH denies his heroes mana, while panda absolutely screws up gargoyles. After that, your hippos and Bof completely tear gargs apart. MGs are probably unecessary, though if you time it right, when the ghouls run past them to get to your back lines, you can divert the ghouls for a split second with each taunt, giving your archers/dots/dryads enough time to take out a few, while bof does its dirty work. And healing scrolls are not a problem. The air battles between hippogriphs and gargs last for seconds anyway sinec both are relatively low HP and very high damage, and so die quite quickly, far too quickly for healing scroll to have effect on them. On top of that, one healing scroll will negate ONE AoE spell. You have four. Bof inital, bof burn, fan, and forked lightning. And on top of that, all the focus fire. Just be sure to fast expand. UD have a very hard time of stopping that and there will never be a nerf to NE fast expansions because trees of life cannot be nerfed, and nor can their move speed, as they are so ungodly slow that their speed isn't of the issue anyway.

So against UD, you can either go Cygnus's ffa strategy (DH tech to air) or the super AoE strategy. Both work extremely well.

[Gladiator]

just mass dryads...

[PerfectDARK]

u must worry more about ud massing fiends..

[thegame]

Archers ---> mass Crows ---> 2-3 Chims (for towers - keep them away from the Gargs, obviously).

Warden first, just as you said. If you mass Crows, you should be able to win if you have Archer support and high level Fan of Knives. Two level 3 FoK = TONS of red hp Ghouls and Gargs.

Whats the point of massing crows?? Dont gargs rape em.

[CraZyKoKeNo]

a while ago i tried an experimental strat, that is really more of a ne mirror strat. potm/arch/hunt/dott. slow tech solo hero protected out of the way expos. it sorta works, i will be honest i made some bad choices in those games where i did it so i never actually *won* per se with it, however i did SIGNIFICANTLY better when i used it. i think its a valid strat and im gonna look into it more and see how to alter it and make it work

[IC.Shadow]

Whats the point of massing crows?? Dont gargs rape em.
Not when 2 (level 3) FoK's takes Gargs' hp down to 30. :)

[Demongod86]

You're not gonna get 2 level 3 FoKs off on the same 5 gargs. Hell, you're not even gonna get 2 FoKs off period before the gargs close with your air. Hippos or bust. If they have a dreadlord, you better mass the hell outta hippos or just not attack the gargs from the air or you're dead meat. Vampiric aura=no thx. But other than that, please see Audio Commentary 104 by Mr.Cygnus. He is the man, and that strat RAPES UD in almost any circumstance if you perform it flawlessly.

[IC.Shadow]

You're not gonna get 2 level 3 FoKs off on the same 5 gargs. Hell, you're not even gonna get 2 FoKs off period before the gargs close with your air.
See above where I said Archers for support. Archer focus fire, + FoK + DoTT attacks = many dead/badly injured Gargs.

FoK will hurt the Ghouls as well, which will keep your Archers alive.

[NOF]

Funny I should find this here cuase i just played a mass ghoul mass garge game. When playing undead I use the basic NE bear build, but I change a couple things here. Go Heavy dryads and about 3 bears and 1 in druid form. This way you can have meat up front and drayads to take out gargs. Your druid can heal and your dh can mana burn their dk and keeper entangle lich. Well there you have it.

[Group_Hug]

Hunts own ghouls.
Archers own gargs.
Warden+Panda own both.

Just go archers and hunts and then add in a mg or two and you should have no problem at all with ud. If you ask me I wouldn't even bother with any other units.

You're only problem should be if he gets really high lvl heroes in which case you're going to need lots of scrolls.

[HelpMeI'mNew]

Ok.

Nova > archers. Can't kill lich because of DK, dk never runs out of mana because of statues mana burn or not. Statues + unholy aura give so much hp per second it's a waste of time attacking the units before statues are dead. By the time those extremely beastly statues die half your army is gone (if you dont get dragons). CF >>>>>>>>>>hunts, Nova >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>archers. Mg is 425 gold 100 wood and 7 food, does no damage and nobody is ever going to attack it. Only viable option is fast tech to bears, but bears die so fast to destroyers and rejuv gets eaten, while dryads die to crypt fiends. There is really nothing that works for NE against UD except out microing them.

I usually just dual AOW pump hunts with a few dragons to kill statues, but even if I kill most of his army, he has a ton of towers he can create within a few seconds.

[CyRaN]

against ud i actually go panda first (sounds retarded but early and mid game u rape with his aoe spells and then u can usually push ur advantage to a victory) with dr, naga, or kotg second with dual aow's, early expo and 1 aol and ancient of wind later. with drunken haze, panda is an excellent creeper.
if there's no tavern, and it's not a small map i go warden with fast tech (skipping any aow's) and tech straight to lore(s) or wind(s), sometimes both. massing dryads can rape the shit out of ghouls, IF u push once u have a few dryads accompaying ur warden and newly made kotg. Killing ghouls or jacking is really helpful, since every ghoul counts. If i c that they start making gargs to counter dryads, well i make a few hippos to help my dryads in beating the air. However if they MASS gargs asap then i just go 3 ancients of wind (u need to outproduce him in numbers!) and mass hippos with a warden, late kotg. use the kotg's thorns aura, i've found that to be extrememly helpful in an all air battle, nearly as good as vamp aura.
Only problem is early push where ud might take out wells or worse, gold mine. try to keep him at his base by harassing and make sure to get a fast ap.
If u get an expo up while harassing than u can get some chims later, (if he's not massing gargs that is) and the game should be yours.

[Dark-Bahamut]

I feel NE vs. UD is the easieset matchup for me. I always go warden/archers and i go harass him. I try to catch him while he's creeping. Once i see he's going mostly ghouls in beginning ill get roughly 3-4 hunts and rest archers. Then i go creep and tech to dott's still pumping out archers and upping them. Creep your warden to lvl 2 fok and get some ballistas and you win. Maybe a few items will suffice to finish him up. Never fight in an UD's base unless you have an overwhelming advantage. When I say advantage i mean you dont even have to micro you win. =)

[\/\/ick3d]

all you need is a warden and lots of tier 1 to beat gool garg man.

ill upload a rep..

ok here it is-



Shadow: Click me :/ (http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/announcement.php?f=14&announcementid=9)

[HeadSoEmpty]

some idiot said that harash UD at tier 1 while u have MG,s!?!
wtf ud techs faster then ne!!!
i have no probs against ghoul+gargs just make talons and archers
and later chim that is goin to hurt all ud players :P
u need to use ur talon as meet against ghoul and when some talons r at lov hp go them to crowform thats good against gargs ^^

[escariot]

head so empty, are you playing the same game as us? ghoul/garg will destroy archers/dott. without any effort at micro.

[zorbie]

to win you MUST go with the flow. never have 1 spesific strat you do against each race. the this you should do is to counter all the time. and scout like a koew :P

[HeadSoEmpty]

hm i played against lot of ud's and they dislike goin gargs, cuz they are screwed up when they go
even if i didnt micro with archers i beat up evry ud

[Demongod86]

DH+panda just rape UD. DH will take out the threat of the death knight and lich far better than any other hero, yes FAR better than warden. And when it comes to gargs, there is NOTHING better than panda. Nothing by a long shot. Anyway, just see Mr.Cygnus's audio 104, for the mass air strategy against UD. What you do is go altar/well/tech at 18/well/aowar/well/archers till 30 population, drop 2 aowinds in the back of your base upon tree of ages, train 6 hippos, research taming, mount, and thx his mine, or go expand yourself. Preferrably both. While that's happening, tech to chimera. Once you get an expo and 4+ chimeras going, just keep trading blows with the UD. As long as you can keep your DH alive, one DH will level far faster than a DK and Lich will. And even if DK and Lich hit level 5, it is absolutely no problem. Pop an AMS potion when engaging, and since mana burn cooldown is 5 seconds, you can get off 3 mana burns before coils and novas start flying at your DH, meaning they're essentially fucked cuz that's a total of 450 mana burned off if he's level 5, or 300 if he's level 3. Should your DH reach level 6, there is no chance in hell that he's gonna be killed barring you do something pathetically stupid. DH is one of THE hardest heroes to kill at level 6, and level 7 is a hop, skip, and jump away since your combat effectiveness will SKYROCKET with the aid of metamorphasis. If you do use a pandarian brewmaster, all the more trouble to them when they're missing 65% of their attacks. So remember: air, solo DH or air, DH/panda, and you'll be fine.

[HelpMeI'mNew]

DH+panda just rape UD. DH will take out the threat of the death knight and lich far better than any other hero, yes FAR better than warden. And when it comes to gargs, there is NOTHING better than panda. Nothing by a long shot. Anyway, just see Mr.Cygnus's audio 104, for the mass air strategy against UD. What you do is go altar/well/tech at 18/well/aowar/well/archers till 30 population, drop 2 aowinds in the back of your base upon tree of ages, train 6 hippos, research taming, mount, and thx his mine, or go expand yourself. Preferrably both. While that's happening, tech to chimera. Once you get an expo and 4+ chimeras going, just keep trading blows with the UD. As long as you can keep your DH alive, one DH will level far faster than a DK and Lich will. And even if DK and Lich hit level 5, it is absolutely no problem. Pop an AMS potion when engaging, and since mana burn cooldown is 5 seconds, you can get off 3 mana burns before coils and novas start flying at your DH, meaning they're essentially fucked cuz that's a total of 450 mana burned off if he's level 5, or 300 if he's level 3. Should your DH reach level 6, there is no chance in hell that he's gonna be killed barring you do something pathetically stupid. DH is one of THE hardest heroes to kill at level 6, and level 7 is a hop, skip, and jump away since your combat effectiveness will SKYROCKET with the aid of metamorphasis. If you do use a pandarian brewmaster, all the more trouble to them when they're missing 65% of their attacks. So remember: air, solo DH or air, DH/panda, and you'll be fine.


Trust me, this won't work unless you are mr.cygnus and playing some one under level 20 and on a big map like gnoll woods. Once he sees fast tech and archers on top of that, gg.

[EpIc]

u can get any unit comination you want, but chances are you will still lose. i just finished playing a game where i had 2 mgs lvl 2 fok, 5 hunts some archers and dotts...i eliminated his army and he killed a good deal of mine, (he had a lvl 3 dk and 2 dl) so it was his 2 heroes vs my lvl 4 warden, 2 kotg 3 archers an mg and 2 dotts. he chain slept both my heroes, killed my archers and dotts in a second, i got his dk in the red, he took a health pot, resumed killing my units and eventually i just quit. i guess its not unbalanced for 2 heroes to be able to defeat an army?

my new strat: see undead in loading screen. check /stats. above 50% = quit

[Demongod86]

Trust me, this won't work unless you are mr.cygnus and playing some one under level 20 and on a big map like gnoll woods. Once he sees fast tech and archers on top of that, gg.

The way I tech, I tech sooner than an UD does. That means that I can, if my base is nice and tight with enough room in the back for 2 winds and a roost, have 6 hippo riders at his mine LONG before he can even expect them.

Fast archer tech can mean a lot of things. It can mean a fast tech to dryad/bear without the hunter's hall built yet. It can mean archer/dott. It can mean fast second hero. Hell, it can possibly mean fast tier 3 hunts! But there are a lot of options that it can be, and who the hell expects flying archers? If done correctly, all they'll have is ghouls. You fly to the back of their abse, thx the acos, FF any upgrading zigs, and thx the mine. While you do that, build some more archers and hippos for hippo riders and go expand yourself. Tech to chimeras. This is the same exact concept as why wyvs rape UD before UD went mass destroyers. But in this case, destroyers won't cut it. If I pull this strategy off correctly, I can almost guarantee you that I will win the game. And if I DO lose, it's not because of my strategy but another mistake, like building placement, or hero micro. I am telling you that I have gotten this strategy to work. Sleep is EASILY countered through micro, and a level 6 DH means instant gg for the UD, because that DH will NEVER be killable. By the time you punch through his metamorphasis, 20% evasion, and high armor, your army will be DEAD if you focused that long on him. GONE. And what does he do? Burns a TP and heals at wells, and then comes back at your base with 6 chims and 8 hippogriph riders. All UD players expect warden/hunts/archers/dotts/dryads. So they'll go their usual ghoul/garg BS. Except ghouls are now useless and gargs will get completely torn apart once you dismount hippo riders. See fiends? Build 3 dotts and keep making hippogriph riders. When you encounter fiends, dismount. Whatever air support he has will be blown right out of the air by hippogriphs and the fiends will die to focus fire, not to mention the CHIMERAS FIRING FROM BEHIND YOUR DH! All in all, this has made my NE v UD games something to actually look FORWARD to and I can say with confidence that as soon as I am able to pull this strategy off flawlessly that I will beat almost any UD I come across.

[Nafaltar]

This strat does work really nice if you can survive until you have a few Archers, which isnt all to difficult when faced with the common DK with few Ghouls tech to Gargoyles. However this should have more problems vs a Dual Crypt rush with DL and Ghouls since there is no way your going to avoid getting surrounded with a singular hero (and even with wisps/Archers your chances to stop the surrround are minimal).


If you do get faced with a Dual Crypt Ghoul rush with DL I would suggest putting your 1. skill point into Immolation. You willl likely get surrounded when running to his base in order to confine him, so basically when you see a DL just skill Immolation and activate it right away since Immolation does deal damage while slept. Dont TP out, just let your DH die, he will be almost revived by the time the UD makes it to your base. At your base the DL should be detonated upon by 1-2 wisps. This will leave the DL with only one sleep, when he Sleepsurrounds you Activate Immolation and TP out, then just proceed to fend of the rush using normal game play.
This should hold of the ennemy long enough for you to get enough Archers to throw him back. After that you have pretty much won because in the case of a Dual Crypt rush the UD will tech even slower thus your Hippos will own him up bad.

Nafaltar

[HelpMeI'mNew]

This strat does work really nice if you can survive until you have a few Archers, which isnt all to difficult when faced with the common DK with few Ghouls tech to Gargoyles. However this should have more problems vs a Dual Crypt rush with DL and Ghouls since there is no way your going to avoid getting surrounded with a singular hero (and even with wisps/Archers your chances to stop the surrround are minimal).


If you do get faced with a Dual Crypt Ghoul rush with DL I would suggest putting your 1. skill point into Immolation. You willl likely get surrounded when running to his base in order to confine him, so basically when you see a DL just skill Immolation and activate it right away since Immolation does deal damage while slept. Dont TP out, just let your DH die, he will be almost revived by the time the UD makes it to your base. At your base the DL should be detonated upon by 1-2 wisps. This will leave the DL with only one sleep, when he Sleepsurrounds you Activate Immolation and TP out, then just proceed to fend of the rush using normal game play.
This should hold of the ennemy long enough for you to get enough Archers to throw him back. After that you have pretty much won because in the case of a Dual Crypt rush the UD will tech even slower thus your Hippos will own him up bad.

Nafaltar

If you're going archers against his ghouls you really do not want to be attacking his base. Secondly you don't want to let your hero die because it gives him experience, alot at that. Just stay close to your base while you creep and tech, to chims and hippos which seems to work nicely (I haven't tested this on a really good opponent though).

Also if he's going for sleep surround just take 2-3 close archers and move-click on your hero, then when he wakes up run him away while getting free hits with your other archers.

[Demongod86]

Nafaltar, if he goes dreadlord ghoul rush, he loses automatically if your base build is up to spec. You know why? Because there's only one entrance to the inside of your base, where your DH will be. Therefore, he has NO way of getting to your archers whatsoever, and there is no way he can surround your DH either, because your DH is surrounded by buildings and slicing one ghoul at a time. Immolation is a BAD idea. Not that it's really a bad skill it's just that it will really mess things up for you later on. A level 3 mana burn, evasion, and metamorphasis are invaluable at level 7. Should you reach that, there is no way the UD will win barring a huge army advantage. And if he goes solo dreadlord, either don't pump archers once he hits level 6, or pump so MANY archers that they can FF that infernal into the ground.

And HelpmeI'mNew, creeping isn't even a requirement. He's gonna attack you suicidally if wants to have a chance, because as soon as you finish tech (and he's still teching himself), you drop 2 aowinds, build 6 hippos for your 6 archers, and then annihilate his acos and mine. The fun part is that there is hardly a way that the UD can get to his mine in a good position since he builds his entire base around it. And if he DOES go back to his mine, back up your hippos a little bit. As soon as he leaves, WHAM again. It keeps the UD from creeping, which is a VERY good thing. And then, once you get chimeras and hippos going, it really is gg. Remember that you will need archers though, to wake up your chimera, cuz using a hippo to do it HURTS, and ditto with waking up your DH with a blast of lightning.

And in the event of dual crypt, if you're really that antsy, throw down a hunter's hall while teching and drop an AP behind your wells. Level 1 dreadlord won't do anything when your DH is in an enclosed area.

[Nafaltar]

If you're going archers against his ghouls you really do not want to be attacking his base.

Youll want to harras him though, cause if you dont harras him you will find the UD in your base before you even have the AoW up....
And if the ennemy went DK (and most do that anyway) you arent really in any Danger of losing your hero while easily beeing able to hinder the UDs creeping then later you can either solo creep with Archers while keeping up the harrasement or if he is getting the better of you (Unholy Aura+more Ghouls) run back with your DH to creep.

Secondly you don't want to let your hero die because it gives him experience, alot at that.

Also if he's going for sleep surround just take 2-3 close archers and move-click on your hero, then when he wakes up run him away while getting free hits with your other archers.


I can promise you that if you dont let your single DH die vs the Dual Crypt Rush you have already lost unless the UD screws up. Cause you will lose your DH ones the UD is in your base...(you wont have 3 [let alone any more to get those "free hits"] Archers by then if you get a late AoW, and even if you did hed just kill your archers instead and then it would be 1 DH vs 10 Ghouls and one DL minus the mayhap 2-3 Ghouls you have forced to run by then).

Nafaltar

[Nafaltar]

If its single Crypt I agree on getting MB over Immolation same goes for other heroes than DL.
And if you finish your base before he gets to you you obviously have a really strong position but im not certain that you can do it if you tech before getting the last few buildings ( can you?).

Nafaltar

[Demongod86]

Naf, of course you harass with DH. But if you see a dreadlord, run for your life, because that sleep/surround is coming. Also, if you see a dreadlord, whatever you do, DO NOT STAY NEAR THE TREES OR ANY OTHER OBSTACLES. With a level 1 dreadlord, if he sleeps you from a far range and you're in the open, I assure you that the surround will fail. He will have a dreadlord, and perhaps 4 ghouls at most. If he sleeps you the moment he sees you, by the time he catches up to you and moves to surround, your DH will have woken up. Run your DH into the open again, and even though he will get slept again, he will wake up before a complete surround can go off. After that, the dreadlord is left with a dangerous 80 mana or so. Mana burn his ass, twice if you can. After that, it's smooth sailing. THe fact is, Naf, the reason DH harass is so good is that a DH can and WILL kill any low HP units you have lying around, he will mana burn you so that you can't use techniques such as coil, sleep, or Water Elemental, and will just be the biggest pain in the ass you can possibly imagine. And again, may I state that 1 DH vs 10 ghouls, if they only have 2 ghouls attacking your DH and getting focused on by archers while an AoWar beats them down, the ten ghouls will easily lose. I have on plunder isle gotten attacked by a DK, 8 ghouls, a lich and a statue. All with 1 level 1 DH at base. You know what happened in the meantime? All of his acos and his mine died to 6 hippogriph riders. If you go altar/well/tech at 18 food/well/ancient of war, by the time he musters enough forces and makes his way towards your base, you WILL be ready. Unless the map is two rivers, or close spawn TROCK, you have enough time.

[sparks]

4-6 hunts, 8-10 archers and 4-5 talons will do the job.. Get lvl 5 Warden and panda as second!

[Nafaltar]

Once again I can only say: you will be able to hold them of if your base doesnt leak otherwise its pretty much gg(to Dual Crypt that is).
And im quite sure that it is really hard to get a non leaking Base on such maps as PI or Two Rivers.

Nafaltar

[white_gragon]

i have just won a game, i can't believe that i could win. He used UD, and his level is 26 while i'm 4 (I'm newb). When i watched the replay, wow.... i was very lucky. this is my replay



Shadow: Click please (http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/announcement.php?f=14&announcementid=9)

[ItsAbOutTimE]

I bet its your micro.. but anyways you can keep pressure on your opponet, and not let him get frenzy ghouls.. try a fast expo also..

[haris_me]

DH+huntresses+hippos+chimeras and when ur hunts which they wont coz they own ghouls shift to mgs pump out 2 mgs, dont let him tech harass effectively . until u r in a viable position to fight fight him on ur own terms not his.since he's a turtler that wont be a problem though

[Demongod86]

For all your NE v UD needs:

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13582

[unhoLyk1d]

I play pretty good but against UD I cant win generally..Even archers cant help me againts garg.some1 help me ... :disgust: :( :happy:

[IGoFastChims]

warden + mass tier 1 + expo after you beat his initial push or ~50 food, tech teir 2, mix in panda/dott/chimera

[Shippo]

UD is my easiest match up 0.o
hum,orc and mirror matchs more harder for me
against UD i almost dont creep, i constantly harass/creepjack while FE
eventually i overwhelm him
that goofy DK cant do much against harassing warden, DL sleep kinnda annoying but after few mins i bring my units with me and just wake the hero
remember that untile tier 3 you are much stronger then the UD, dont let him do anything
dont let him creep, dont let him mass units, dont let him expand (expand yourself)
if you have zepplin harrass when you have high lvl warden

[AnCouLer]

I would say archer/mg/chims

[IGoFastChims]

Archer die to AoE, MG don't do any damage, garg > chim.

[Meru]

ghoulz/garg dies fast to 10+archer and with 3-4 hunt (up archers as much as possible) and warden with fok (then ur choice of either panda or dh with immo or breath)

simple question, simple answer.
Hunt > Ghoul
Archer > gargoyle
and look! They use the same techtree upgrades!

of course micro helps, and so does focus firing (especially if they have those 5 scrolls of healing you mentioned)

[Demongod86]

Meru, problem being that gargs swarm so that you can't micro, and ghouls>archers more than hunts>ghouls, meaning he zerg rushes your archer line and then has his way with you. You need dryads and dotts mixed in if you're gonna use this strategy, and a panda for the AoE. However, this strategy usually is a mega contest of micro and brings a lot of unnecessary hassle. UD can't end it early, but you most certainly CAN end it late with chimeras. And then you can use hippos/archers to back up your chimeras. Ghouls will disappear if they try to zergrush your archer line since chimeras create a deathwall because they lack targets (gee imagine that you garg massers). Therefore, your archers have free reign. After his weak ground is gone, if you have warden, panda, or naga around, you can say gg to that DK cuz he's not getting away, or you can just say gg to the UD base and gg to the player cuz player-base=lose.

Simply put: there is NO unit that takes care of the ground war better than chimeras. None. And if there is a huge tradeoff between gargs and hippos, that means that there are some high level heroes going down, and DK is best only when he's level 5. After that, he gets worse and worse and worse AND WORSE. Ditto with all UD heroes. They're at their best when their level 3 direct damage spell takes out the most percentage of life. In other words, what's easier to nuke: a level 5 warden or a level 10 warden? Or DH, if you so wish (like I so wish all the time). So...there you have it.

[Meru]

Simply put: there is NO unit that takes care of the ground war better than chimeras. None. And if there is a huge tradeoff between gargs and hippos, that means that there are some high level heroes going down, and DK is best only when he's level 5. After that, he gets worse and worse and worse AND WORSE. Ditto with all UD heroes. They're at their best when their level 3 direct damage spell takes out the most percentage of life. In other words, what's easier to nuke: a level 5 warden or a level 10 warden? Or DH, if you so wish (like I so wish all the time). So...there you have it.

You're thinking like a FFA player now. Yes chimaeras rape ground, Yes dryads are good for slow, but we're talking about UD massing gargs and ghouls, which this guy is clearly having his problems with.
I'd get archers over dryads for several reasons: Dryads are unarmored (taking extra) whereas archers are medium (taking reduced). Drayds have lower range 500 (to 700 on upgraded archers) and use a different techtree than huntresses (strength of wild as opposed to strength of moon).

sure hippo/dott/chim ruins garg/ghoul... it ruins a lot of things actually, but who's going to let you mass up an army of expensive tier 3 units?

You're likely to have hunts already since it's the NE basic tier1 melee unit, so why not keep with those and upgrade them accordingly? Of course ghouls rape archers, but Huntresses have a ranged attack. Why not just micro the archers and let the hunts have free reign on running ghouls? In the end it all comes down to micro anyways, mass chims and hippos still get raped by the single good shot of drunken haze from the panda, so let's cut the theorycrafting and get to practicing the micro?

[\/\/ick3d]

Warden/panda/hunts/dotts/dryads (for anti sleep). expand when you have the advantage.

http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=3391

[Demongod86]

Meru, it's about the speed of your tech. Put it this way: an UD can reach his tier 3 quickly. So can you. Match his tech and instead of investing in an open base with tier 1, invest in a closed base with tier 3. That simple. Check out my, well, CYGNUS's guide to NE v UD. I can tell you that if done right, it's gg on the head, with very little UD can do about it.

[Andy Wilson]

I go the tinker strat go tinker and archers then get hippo ryders and when they charge with there gargs dimount have your hippos own their gargs and have like 2 chims and the archers and the clockwerk goblins own their ghouls
then when you can mount the archers again it works really well for me.


http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12765

/\ that's where I got it.

[Demongod86]

Except that the tinker absolutely sucks as a combat hero. Great for harassing/powercreeping and all, but next to worthless as a fighter.

[Meru]

Harassing is what you need when you tech. to tier 2/3

[Andy Wilson]

Yeah he's not a great fighting hero tha'ts why I never go into combat with out a potions of invurnability and an invis potion but the clockwerk goblins own ghouls hippos own gargs "usually" but when you have archers ont eh ground FFing on gargs they usually die pretty fast and the mounting your archers again

[H-e-X]

Yeah but watch out for Frost Nova on your archers keep them far back and lure the gargs in, if you cna micro that, im always worried about frost nova V.S. Undead... The rest i get MG's, Archers, 2-4 Hunts, Warden with FoK... But Really its all about scouting them and jsut counter what ever they are doing, Dont let them level, Keep an eye on them and creep jank them ;)
lol i did that and the guy accused me of map hack hehe
just make sure the DK does go past level 4 or Lich past level 2, Micro a bit ;)

[Akujin]

hi

i am struggling heavy here
i cant win undead if they go ghouls gargs
even if i go cheesemaster
even if i go warden
even if i get 3 herso warden Dh Panda
i cnat win cos he turtles and gets frenzy gouls with gargs
and get 3 -5 scrolls of healing evertime u sea fok he use scroll
so his army doent get kill u do and then rem the hero nuking
i havent won a NE vs undead since new patch :crybaby:

wel okes if u can give me a start that will beat a good undead when he goes
ghoul+garg DK+Lich+Cl

i would be thankfull
cheers

DH first is your friend. Just out-expo the UD player, build lots of APs, and wait it out. Get hunts/archers/dryad/dott, warden second, and mana burn the DK like crazy. Get AMS potions to stop surround.