View Full Version : You need 4 goldmines to beat ud!!
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13546
Only way to beat UD is to mass expo's, Spirit_Moon style. And even then you only BARELY win. Seems every other game of mine against UD lasts 30+ minutes. Hate UD. So what did I do wrong?? The replays I watch one expo is enough to beat UD. But why did I need 4?? Help plz. It was actually a pretty good game. Had my opponent not been UD, I probably would have enjoyed it.
This kid has the ugliest stats I have ever seen. But he was 6-0 against Orc. His average game against every single race is 20+ minutes per game.
Seems every single unit I make is just free experience for him. Yet I have to make units since their heroes rape my heroes.
I'm gonna start a "I hate UD" cult. Everybody who beats UD plz post your replays. If you post it, I guarantee I will watch it.
rip_shadowfury
03-23-2005, 07:32 AM
Orc needs alot expes to counter anything with bats. Ever tried a t2 rush with berserker grunts+fs+tc+speed scroll to take down acos then tp out? It is so effective if the ud is starting to tech.
mosarani
03-23-2005, 07:42 AM
I never really have an issue with this. As an orc player, If I creep a good spot for an expansion, I'll expand there, but against a good undead it's a given they'll spot it at somepoint before it finishes construction. Usually once it gets 2/3 done, I'll send 2 other peons to start building towers, if you start before then it'll just be a waste if they come attack it. Even if you don't get an expansion though, I think it's an even battle between fiend stat dest dk/lich versus grunt raider wyv blade/tc. The winner will be the one with the higher hero levels and better micro.
haris_me
03-23-2005, 01:41 PM
i dont have enuff time to watch the replay right now but u shud generally not let the undead heroes level up if u r against a lvl 5 lich and lvl5 dk and a lvl 3 cryptlord u might as well quit.
JarEme
03-23-2005, 01:54 PM
I think you could have ended it a lot earlier if you were more aggressive. At one point, you had about seven or so wyverns and he had nothing but ghouls. After 20 minutes too, you stopped scouting for expansions, which added a lot of time to the game.
LaSch.m1x
03-23-2005, 02:20 PM
ok... how to beat just about any race... there's this uber-cool NEW strat ive learned... its called FS+Grunts+Raiders+TC and a 2-3 minutes after T2 rush with 2 demos... ever see what a SS and 2-3 raiders plus a demo does to a creeping opponents base... you jsut rape whatever production buildings you can and ensnare the workers so they cant repair. I got away from using demos a while back but have just started using them again recently. they rape. my micro wasnt good enough when i first started playing to keep them aliive. and you have to be VERY careful about positioning. there really isnt any way to go wrong if you scout decently and get 2-4 catapults. It's essential vs NE and doesnt hurt to add up tons of dmg vs any other race.(esp HU :) )
sodium
03-23-2005, 03:09 PM
I'm gonna start a "I hate UD" cult. Everybody who beats UD plz post your replays. If you post it, I guarantee I will watch it.
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13562
Fresh from this afternoon.
I think you could have ended it a lot earlier if you were more aggressive. At one point, you had about seven or so wyverns and he had nothing but ghouls. After 20 minutes too, you stopped scouting for expansions, which added a lot of time to the game.
I'm always afraid to assault the UD base. Especially with wyvern that take extra damage from their towers.
sodium
03-23-2005, 04:06 PM
The (lame) solution: Play NE. Only reason I'm playing Orc ATM is because I have put in 400 games with them and I have a tourny this evening. After this its time to go NE all the way...the race that can counter anything, anytime, and almost any map.
mosarani
03-23-2005, 04:22 PM
The (lame) solution: Play NE. Only reason I'm playing Orc ATM is because I have put in 400 games with them and I have a tourny this evening. After this its time to go NE all the way...the race that can counter anything, anytime, and almost any map.
lol ^_^
I'd like you to remember that you said this, and read it again once you've played 400 ne games.
Rappa
03-23-2005, 04:51 PM
This post could not be more true. The other day i used the regular strat which involves map control(lost temple) so ud cannot get an expo, meanwhile i already have early expo plus another qued and i am playing keep away at his natural expo, while creep jacking him. So I basically had the game won, soon he realized he had to fight me so i would stop harassing his expo, we came out even in the battle so I went back to base and alreay had double totems and massed taurens. We fought again and i killed everything on the ground with fs, tc, sh and mas taurens but he had destoyers and a coule frosties, so i ran away got bats about 8 and besrkers. Now the next encounter we fight i kill his 2 heros out of 3 and all fiends and statues since i had taurens but his air owned me! All the bats and zerkers barely killed have his air force and it was GG. Needless to say dont let the UD get an expand, even if he got it late and u have 2 becus Ud tier 3 own everything! And vs mass destroyers your screwed.
law_Einhander
03-23-2005, 05:57 PM
The (lame) solution: Play NE. Only reason I'm playing Orc ATM is because I have put in 400 games with them and I have a tourny this evening. After this its time to go NE all the way...the race that can counter anything, anytime, and almost any map.
lol this is so funny because.....
ITS TRUE , lmfao
darther
03-23-2005, 06:11 PM
kogs, there's a reason all ud players, both low and high level, say that orc > ud, watch fov vs. grubby games
no matter what we do, you have a very viable counter to it, fiends/stats/destros seems to be a problem w/ most of you guys, but that is easily countered by grunts/raiders/kodos/bats
wyvs/bats just basically plain out owns ud b/c wyvs > fiends
furthermore, you guys will almost always have an expo whereas we will not, so once you hit a reasonable food count, 60 or 70, keep pushing our base. so we have 1 spirit tower and 1 frost tower. whoop dee doo. you have the resources to recover but we do not
VinceNet
03-23-2005, 06:41 PM
"I'm gonna start a "I hate UD" cult"
May I join ? I got horrible stats against UD ;/
mutantkraze
03-23-2005, 06:44 PM
Most people are intimidated by the UD base and most UD players know that...
rip_shadowfury
03-23-2005, 06:51 PM
Ud base is so overrated. Ziggs go down fast, acos are unprotected and the towers are very expensiv compared to other towers.
spladel66
03-23-2005, 06:57 PM
U had 4 beastirys and 3 tauren totems........... wat a waste, also u barely knew wat the guy had, u need to make sure u always know. I find htat getting 2 docs and mass warding the place helps alot cuz i usually win my games from creep jacking the guy
mosarani
03-23-2005, 08:16 PM
I'm gonna start a "I hate UD" cult. Everybody who beats UD plz post your replays. If you post it, I guarantee I will watch it.
Here's me playing under par and still beating the 2nd highest level undead player on azeroth. IMO orc vs ud is slightly imbalanced, but not in the way you think.
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13572
i-use-human
03-23-2005, 08:48 PM
Orc needs alot expes to counter anything with bats. Ever tried a t2 rush with berserker grunts+fs+tc+speed scroll to take down acos then tp out? It is so effective if the ud is starting to tech.
serkers a t2? :\
mutantkraze
03-23-2005, 08:56 PM
Here is a game that i just played...
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13575
this might help you out KoG
mutantkraze
03-24-2005, 01:10 AM
Here is another
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13586
Basically UD isnt anything without their heros....once u take care of the heros, than its GG, but that doesnt mean go after the heros while ur whole army is getting slaughtered...
heebejeebie
03-24-2005, 01:17 AM
Wow! this was the most frustrating replay Ive ever seen.
You made a few key mistakes and you also made a lot of bad strategy decisions.
First off you should use your book of the dead as soon as you can. the longer you wait the higher tech units your enemy has. you want the skelletons from the book to have the most impact on the battle so you should use them when your enemy is still using teir one or teir two units.
Second there where a few points when you had several units just hanging around when their presence in battle whould have drastically changed the outcome.
The first time your opponent attacked your expo with his distroyers you had about 7 wyverns and 4 batriders just sitting around. When you finnally used them you just sent in the batriders. Batriders are only really effective with a little backup to finish off the remaining air units.
There was also a point when you left your TC just standing at your expo while your army was fighting in the middle.
Those are small details. A bigger prob is that you had map control for the first twenty minutes of the game but you did nothing with it. you could have towered your opponent into his base. you could have slowly laid seige to his base. You could have crushed his every attempt to expand.
It seemed like your strat was to starve your opponent out. In order to do that you need to pick off his units one buy one whenever he tries to come out of his base. To do that you need some orc nuking. Raiders w/ ensnare and SH with hex.
The biggest prob you had was that you didn't vary your unit selection. Most of the time you used one or two different kinds of units. With the gold income you had you could have developed master shaman witchdocs and spiritwalkers to back up an army of tauren wyverns and bezerkers and you would have raped him.
The issue is not that UD is too strong, you just need to rething your strat.
^Dagon^
03-24-2005, 01:20 AM
Ud base is so overrated. Ziggs go down fast, acos are unprotected and the towers are very expensiv compared to other towers.
I am not complaining about Ud, but don't say that their base is overrated. Asaulting the Ud base is like trying to punch a stone wall.
sodium
03-24-2005, 02:08 AM
lol ^_^
I'd like you to remember that you said this, and read it again once you've played 400 ne games.
Well I'm up to 250 or so. I'll get back to you...
TheDarkLich
03-24-2005, 08:21 AM
I am not complaining about Ud, but don't say that their base is overrated. Asaulting the Ud base is like trying to punch a stone wall.
It is true that their towers are good, but they cost A LOT.
I personnally wouldn't be sad if the death star made a comeback at half the damage it once did, because undead is forced to upgrade ziggurats, we have no natural defense.
BonJar
03-24-2005, 08:22 AM
Orc don't need 4 expos to win vs UD, orc need micro to win vs UD and UD need luck to win vs Orc.
mutantkraze
03-25-2005, 03:34 AM
heres another i just played
http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=13637
im gonna stop playing orc because during game if they see you can win beacuse your better than they will just delay time until tier 3 mass air which orc cannot counter so im probally gonna swicth to UD myself
Ferocious_Fox
03-25-2005, 08:50 PM
Leme tell you something, I too used to be an orc solo player who struglled against undead. But I found a solution.
Demos.
One thing most players underestimate is that undead ziggurats are VERY WEAK. If you get 3-5 demos, one hit from each of them and the zig is gone! I found this to be very helpful, when i add that with a good army of 2 heroes, raiders, kodos, and maybe a few hh or tauren, it can really rape. Whatever you do, it's not a good idea to rush. Especially if he has a nerubian tower up.
Another good idea might be to research pillage as well.
NE_Masta
03-25-2005, 10:41 PM
lol actually you don't need a lot of expo's to win, I've tried out a good strategy using the dark ranger as your first hero, works well against UD, its quite good, as a tank and a shield, good for skeletons most important spell to protect your archers, just micro them and the skeletons are free shields.
Leme tell you something, I too used to be an orc solo player who struglled against undead. But I found a solution.
Demos.
One thing most players underestimate is that undead ziggurats are VERY WEAK. If you get 3-5 demos, one hit from each of them and the zig is gone! I found this to be very helpful, when i add that with a good army of 2 heroes, raiders, kodos, and maybe a few hh or tauren, it can really rape. Whatever you do, it's not a good idea to rush. Especially if he has a nerubian tower up.
Another good idea might be to research pillage as well.
cept one thing the UD always ALWAYS have desto so like they rape ur demos ...get bats you say?....well fiends web those little bastards and takes about 3-4 bats to kill 1 desto so idk im like at end of the lines here
Tainted Sun
03-26-2005, 01:14 PM
Ud base is so overrated. Ziggs go down fast, acos are unprotected and the towers are very expensiv compared to other towers.
So true, being an UD player I sit and laugh at the fact that people dont attack me because they are afraid of having one unit slowed. :)
I am not complaining about Ud, but don't say that their base is overrated. Asaulting the Ud base is like trying to punch a stone wall.
No, it is overrated...
Guys look if you want to beat an UD with Orc, push and never stop...watch Grubby own Fov...thats how he does it, he pushes and pushes and the pressure is never let go...no one can hope to beat high level Undead heros. :rolleyes:
The (lame) solution: Play NE. Only reason I'm playing Orc ATM is because I have put in 400 games with them and I have a tourny this evening. After this its time to go NE all the way...the race that can counter anything, anytime, and almost any map.
As for that watch Mad.Frog (cant.chat) play NE with mass gargs. You will :crybaby:
fuzzytoad
03-26-2005, 02:07 PM
I am not complaining about Ud, but don't say that their base is overrated. Asaulting the Ud base is like trying to punch a stone wall.
Its really not =P.
Guys take the time to actually 'click' on a ziggurat - 550 hp with 1 fortified armor. Then when they upgrade to spirit tower they get avg 29.5 dmg and 5 fortified armor, but considering that if you force an undead to upgrade all his zigs to spirit towers its pretty much over already since you contained the undead.
Also you don't have to shy from towers if the undead is turtleing in his base. Jus tower him up and own his ass cuz undead have the worst seige in the game. (also: the strategies you should be going vs undead pretty much give you the perfect units for towering ie. raiders/grunts > fiends, raiders are fast + ensnare kills seige quick or wyverns > pretty much every unit the undead has except heroes which are also uber leet for killing seige)
Tainted Sun
03-27-2005, 11:05 AM
I think the bigger problem with Undead bases is the slow...because one key can totally change how the freezing works for you...let me explain
There is a little formation button on the side. That button will make the groups you have all most at the lowest units speed...to keep them together, which has its pros and cons...a pro being, your units arnt all over the map with your slow siege at the back and you heros out, alone in the front...the con being...
...when you attack a undead bace and it freezes one of your guys...its like freezing all your guys...
Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe that the formation button will make all your units go at the slow speed, to not leave behind the ones that are slowed...so this makes it harder to run.
Again correct me if Im wrong, Ill retract my post.
Peter_Hand
03-28-2005, 12:35 AM
A nice strat that works versus UD if you dont like going mass expos .... i play UD at a preatty high lvl and this works gainst me unless i go fiends or unless i spot it right away.. get like 5-6 hunts then AP push make 3 aps at night right at the edge of my line of sight... and make 4 glaives... time it so you can use glaives to take out zigs just as im hitting tier 2.. the aps and hunts will control the ghoul ground game the dh neutralizes the dk andthe glaives kill zigs and slow the wagons/fiends/gargs hes trying to get to counter you.... takes a bit of practise and micro but when executed with finess it is very powerful. one of the few Nelf strats that scares me.. gl with it
I think the bigger problem with Undead bases is the slow...because one key can totally change how the freezing works for you...let me explain
There is a little formation button on the side. That button will make the groups you have all most at the lowest units speed...to keep them together, which has its pros and cons...a pro being, your units arnt all over the map with your slow siege at the back and you heros out, alone in the front...the con being...
...when you attack a undead bace and it freezes one of your guys...its like freezing all your guys...
Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe that the formation button will make all your units go at the slow speed, to not leave behind the ones that are slowed...so this makes it harder to run.
Again correct me if Im wrong, Ill retract my post.
I believe you are wrong. Try having a group of grunts run away from sorcs. Only the grunts that are slowed go slow. While the other ones are full speed.
KoG want some advice cant beat em join em thats why i did like i won past 6 solo games vs high lvls while using UD and its rather fun if ur enemy is a dick just nuke the shit outta his hero non stop
I thought about it. But then I gotta re-learn hotkeys, build orders, hero skills, ect. Not too excited about that to be honest. Ok and I have customized my mouse buttons and hotkeys to how I like it. With UD being completely different from Orc, I will have to re-do/re-learn all that. And if I don't like UD, I am screwed since I gotta change all back and re-learn everything for Orc again, or another race lol.
I thought about it. But then I gotta re-learn hotkeys, build orders, hero skills, ect. Not too excited about that to be honest. Ok and I have customized my mouse buttons and hotkeys to how I like it. With UD being completely different from Orc, I will have to re-do/re-learn all that. And if I don't like UD, I am screwed since I gotta change all back and re-learn everything for Orc again, or another race lol.
its not hard i played orc alot and UD was easy for me to learn not really hard most of the hotkeys you gonna be using in battle is C+N not hard at all hotkeys are easy if you remember the name of the spell then u can like guess what it is some of the time
TheDarkLich
03-28-2005, 10:48 AM
I have a special custom key setup that was inspired by someone named "DarkChrono" on battle.net months ago (no, not the one from this forum).
Basically, just like everyone, my spells are mapped to asdf. But where it's different is that they are mapped there in a way corresponding to their use in battle.
Let me explain myself.
What is the slowest and less precise moving finger on your left hand? The pinky. A is always the hotkey of the ultimate for all of my heroes. F being the easier to press, it is usually a nuke, or the hero's most used spell. D is the second most used (or if the hero has an aura, its the only other spell he can cast), and S is the least used spell or a non-combat spell.
Ok, let's take a look at the warden for example. Shadow strike, her nuke, is F. Fan of knives, her second most used skill and an AoE is D. Blink is a non-combat spell, and not a really used one, so it's S. And Avatar of Vengeance is A since it is her ultimate.
Using that setup, you can switch to any race without problems.
sodium
03-28-2005, 01:55 PM
I have a special custom key setup that was inspired by someone named "DarkChrono" on battle.net months ago (no, not the one from this forum).
Basically, just like everyone, my spells are mapped to asdf. But where it's different is that they are mapped there in a way corresponding to their use in battle.
Let me explain myself.
What is the slowest and less precise moving finger on your left hand? The pinky. A is always the hotkey of the ultimate for all of my heroes. F being the easier to press, it is usually a nuke, or the hero's most used spell. D is the second most used (or if the hero has an aura, its the only other spell he can cast), and S is the least used spell or a non-combat spell.
Ok, let's take a look at the warden for example. Shadow strike, her nuke, is F. Fan of knives, her second most used skill and an AoE is D. Blink is a non-combat spell, and not a really used one, so it's S. And Avatar of Vengeance is A since it is her ultimate.
Using that setup, you can switch to any race without problems.
I never had any problem with the default hotkeys? :)
Only thing that screwed me up was how Abolish magic was S to reserach and B to use. Wow that boned me over.
IMHO there are very few things you really need to rebind in the game:
Move bound to Z, or to ` (tilde/reverse apostrophe) via AHK
Lightning Shield to T or something
Nova to C
Polymorph to Q or something.
uhh...thats it? Some people might want to bind Peons/Peasants to W or something, and their make-building hotkeys to something closer (B, O for burrow is a little annoying, but easy when you get used to it), but there aren't TOO many "bad" hotkey positions.
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