NE VS NE Mirror AUDIO!!!

[DrZaP84]

Well, the most hated mirror of them all! The Night Elf Mirror. However there is two different strategies that these two players go, and two different results(for the players I mean.) So, sit back and relax, and enjoy half an hour of the most hated mirror of them all!

Outro Music: Fugazi Life and Limb


The most hated mirror ever (http://rapidshare.de/files/1579945/NE_VS_NE_AUDIO.zip.html)

[fromdownyonder]

It wasnt a bad i audio, i liked it. Gj man.

[BlackRiderz]

Cmon, Zap's audios own!Nice AC Zap. ^^

[Dakonblackblade]

K zap plz dont get angry.Shitheadsaurus still exist.Downloading this one 2 .Thx man for your work and effort

[Sly0_0]

i didn't like the audio. U state DH is better then Potm but didn't have anything to back up ur statment. Potm mass hunts isn't a easy strat. And u didn't really say why the winner won( he didn't win solely on the secend hero) Btw the huvshu was so long because it was hero chaseing and harassing at the end.

[DrZaP84]

Sly0_0 ty for your reply. I did state one reason why dh was better, still. Ill admit though I probably didn't state enough. Which, im sorry for, and I will in my next audio(not the humanvshuman) on why the winner won. This is the criticism I needed. Thank you for focusing on what I did wrong, as I do want to bring to this community better audios. So as for my next audio, I dont know what ill do, but I appreciate CONSTRUCTIVE criticism as sly has given me. And I will work on explaining why the winner won the match. As I agree, it just wasn't the second hero. It was more of the unit choices and obviously the micro.

Dakon + Blackryderz: TY for the encouragement, hopefully my next audio will be better though. As sly pointed out some things I do need to work on.


Also some reasons on why DH > POTM

-From level 2+ DH's manaburn can be utilized usefully against the potm.
-Also if the POTM user decides to go a second hero, the DH can effectively make the second hero useless, via manaburn.
-DH can obviously take more punishment than POTM.
-DH can handle archers IMO a little better than POTM can. While POTM has searing, it can only hit one archer at a time, while with immolation the dh can hurt multiple archers, and dispose of them quicker.
-DH looks cooler :P
-If your left with hero vs hero(situational) DH can handle POTM better than POTM can handle DH.

Hopefully, these reasons are sufficient. Again, I apologize, I did not add those in the actual commentary, but now, I have shown reasons as to why in MY opionion DH is a better hero than POTM in a NE mirror match.

[Dakonblackblade]

Hmm a bit sceptic about this ac.Zap ,watch it again man ,and i think u find that this was a lil bit weak compared to your previous works( u r a smart guy and i know u will see your mistakes).But my previous words were true also(first post).

[DrZaP84]

Yea, Dakon, it was a bad audio. I agree. Ugh, sorry guys. In my next audio, I will try to do a lot better. Ugh this was bad. Oh well, we all have bad ones I suppose.

[Heck]

Thanks for the audio work, not everyone can have a perfect audio every time...

[zandamotr]

well to the first guy who claimed this audio was too basic (for noobs).. Isn't that what ac's are for?

[Violence]

Sly0_0 and ShadowDrakeX, please grow up. Even if the audio wasn't perfect, (I) always respect people, for putting time and effort into it.

[Grommash]

Ok i've just watched this AC and it wasn't bad like most of u ppl have been saying, in fact it was really good and contained a lot of great tips which is more experience to all of us, ty Zap for keep providing us with ur awesome work ^^ .

Oh and also the outro song was really ownage man!! ;) *downloading*

EDIT: Removing flames from this thread/off-topic/quotes.

[Sly0_0]

Sly0_0 and ShadowDrakeX, please grow up. Even if the audio wasn't perfect, (I) always respect people, for putting time and effort into it.

no audios are perfect. I gave constructive advice as zap appreciated it. By posting advice i already show my respect for helping him improve. My post did seem negitive because i posted all the bad points of the audio but saying he has a clear voice doesn't really help him execpt his confidence which he has so saying positive points seems pointless to me.

[Sly0_0]

If u have the time, u may do an audio on one of my games. This is extremly short 10min game is very typical but really shows the difference between the players because i got ass raped. Both did potm mass hunt.

http://wc3.warcraftstrategy.com/db/Replay.asp?RID=18923
uploading seems easier to me than at this site.

For example in the game. If both players has 8 hunts and 1 has lvl 2 immolation and other has lvl 2 arua.

-naturally dh has more dps then potm but the arua is adds around 25 plus damage which makes up for the potms attack.
-They way i see early ne mirror is all about the moonjuice. Whoever saves more, heals more, saves more units, wins. DH with imo and burn is very draining on wells as sumtimes ur stuck with leaving 20hp hunts at the back of ur base waiting till night.
- I rarly see a potm mass hunt get a secend hero.
-mana burn is a good tool to waist moonjuice. Useing 50 juice for their 100juice. during battles it hard to get him to potm through those hunts and potm mainly used for the arua as even if u sumhow lvl 1 mana burned a potm to no mana, it won't make much of a difference.
- probably true dh could beat potm in a 1vs1 situation but players never plan the game to be that late. where theres base races and trying to get expo for sum gold.
-True Dh can beat archers better then potm beating archers but WHO goes potm and archers anyways? If theres potm archer hunt then you get surrounded if ur sumhow getting to the archers. No good player would let a burning dh attack a bunch of archers. They proly run the archers or meld them etc, long story of wut could happen.

[DrZaP84]

Grommash: TY for the support, but it really wasn't that good. Trust me, Im very happy your a fan of my work, but this specific audio, after listening to it a second time, it really disapointed me.

Sly: I agree, However, I don't like POTM over DH, because if the game lasts to tier 3, its gg. which is quite obvious. However, it is nice debating with you, on these points. True, in a mass hunts situation does the POTM user not go a second hero. However, it isn't that hard to get a manaburn off. Manaburn has decent enough range, and you can always micro back your hero. Also, while potms damage does add up, even by tier 2, the dh user will probably have a mix of hunts + dryads +archers, and by tier 3 Id expect to see Bears. And the slow poision of dryads + the fact they dont take extra from the hunts damage is definitly a plus. Anyways just the fact that DH has burn, imo makes it a superior choice over POTM. I think POTM hunts against a good player is unreliable. Im not saying it cant win, but I just dont like the strategy, and I think it is unreliable. Tis all im saying, thanks for criticism.

[Sly0_0]

Are u going to do a audio on my replay? yes? no?

[Spookify]

pretty decent ac. the only suggestion i would give is to do less summurizing and try to tell more why, but i understand its hard when its not u playing :happy: anyway overall it wasnt as terrible as you say :p:

[DrZaP84]

Sly: Sure, when I get some time.
America: thanks, eh, I dont know it coulda been better, I shoulda edited it better before I posted it, but oh well.

[ShadowDrakeX]

didnt mean to be mean but im saying what u said was mostly basic and that its pronounced immolation not emolation lol. and i when i talk into a mic my voice gets really damn high for some reason i cant control that sorry.... and my word of wisdom on how to improve. dont say so much basic shit im not dissing on you but u did say alot of basic stuff. (sorry for offending you in my 1st post)

[DrZaP84]

Here it is again (http://rapidshare.de/files/1655364/POTM_VS_POTM.zip.html)

Here it is, hopefully it is much better.

[Dakonblackblade]

Remake?Im very curious.Zap nice move to remake.Appreciate your double effort...well ,double.You are the best.

[Grommash]

Just finished listening to the second one, amazing i would say...b/c this time u gave full details about what's the advantge of the potm hunts strat also harassing,countering,microing in this mirror it was all really good. Plus i loved the Mello Yellow song ^^ dude that was some real old school music. =)

[Dakonblackblade]

Oh zap can i count on you for a super gosu combination of heros like pitlord-alchemist (used by grubby) or medusa-seer fo the lighning uberness(just for fun)?Now that im thinking wouldn frost arrow work better for the orc mirror like an extra esnare(kinda)?Cause im guessing hex is better but isnt fork better than wards?

[DrZaP84]

Gromassh: Im glad you enjoyed it.

DAKON: Back in the day of id say about 1.16 FS Naga was used a lot. Whenever I play ORC. I tend to go BM(Blade Master) + Naga. Just because Arrow + Windwalk=gged hero.
Forked is better in some situations, while I believe ward is better in others. Ward is better against an elven oppenent. Whereas in orc mirror I could see FS OR BM work with naga. Much <3 for naga. She really is a great hero, and at level 3, with level 2 Fork, she becomes a good harasser against Night Elf. Because fork does 160 damage thus if your oppenent has 3 wisps close together, than all 3 are gged.

And maybe when I get a little better at the game, maybe I will do audios on weird hero combos, because I could see something crazy like panda pitlord working.

[Sly0_0]

Great audio, im very fladdered you made a audio on one of my games. I was surprised he outeverythinged me. Micro, macro, EVERYTHING.

Reasons why he beat me.
-the potm battle was near my base which means he naturally faster than me since he got potm faster, attacked my potm more from wisp block and noticed my potm running across the map first, which is why they were kissing as i started attacking infront of her.
- Smarter build. He built hunters hall, ancient of war, moonwell, ancient of war which is safe becaause if i went dh harass everything would have been built too much to destroy as his secend ancient could be build in a secret place. I went hunters hall, 2 ancients and moonwell. 1 aow or a moonwell woulda been destoryed if he went dh.
-His build gets him earlier hunts which allows him to creep faster.( creeping while hero was healing was gosu)
- He power creeped and i didn't since i was pariniod about saving moonwells juice so i creeped easy camps and didn't want to be creepjacked.
- I had a wisp at the shop( a specific tree which allows you to see the troll)said in 1 of suboshies audios but reacted late and ended up running for nothing
- he did the same at the shop near my base as i ran and creeped it later.
- the only think it beat him in was luck. My wind was better then his mana stone which he sold for 225g. Potm rarly runs out of mana from arrows. Wind can dely much more worth of gold than 225.
- The game changing move was the uses of scrolls. He pulled his orange hunts back to attack but not be attacked directly. When most of his hunts were orange, he used the heal scroll. Using the most out of the scroll. I was watching my first hunt die as i saved my 1 hunt from the scroll when my other hunts were green. Btw he focusfired a few hunts on 1 of mine as i didn't do anything.
- like u said, winds on the hunts were stupid since it denys them taken splash damage from glaves
-only think he did bad was not bringing wisp to repair glaves(coulda dispelled the wind charges)

About your secend hero advice for the dh bear tec. i think is depends on the situation as how well are you doing. If you prevented them from creeping or not. In a time where they are pressuring you as ur almost at teir 3 i think it's important to get a naga and pass your boots you bought to her because you don't want to fight without claw form so i think gosu dancing to waist time is good and trying to force a tp by freezing it to buy more time. Btw a high lvl Dh isn't as important as a high lvl secend hero. I seen pros do this in ne mirror. Dh power creep to lvl 3 and get invisaility pot with boots. Power creep your secend hero as ur dh follows the opponate and picks up items or steal kills with mana burn. I tried this, it's very challenging muiltitasking as i usually end up following the oppnate like a shade.

Hope my perspective helps. Again great audio, can't wait for your next audios as i know they will keep improving. Btw Are you a ne commenatator or your just do all races?

Dam.. sry for the eassy

[DrZaP84]

Heh, im glad you enjoyed it. Hm, I completely forgot to mention those things, very nice insight, however I did mention the tree where you put your wisp. As that is def. a great spot to leave a wisp. Im a Night Elf Player. However, I have enough knowledge to do an audio on any race. I mean, in WC3 there isnt a variety of strats that is used. Players usually do one or two things against a certain race. And I agree, your second hero choice def. depends on what is happening during the game, hence imo it is better to get a summoning hero second if your pushing your oppenent. My next audio will be Night Elf vs UD. With the Night Elf winning, however after that, I will do an UD audio, and after that, whatever race the UD beats, I will do an audio on that race. All to switch it up a little bit. Im glad my second audio was a lot better than the first NE mirror. Hopefully my NE vs UD will have the same if not better quality. Thanks for all your help sly.

[Sly0_0]

can you try to find a game with Dreadlord vs a warden or panda? Or a goulg garg is a nice audio too. With panda and warden you depend on them alot and it's most annoying when their taken out of the game for a little while as sumtimes i have heros attacking each other after they been awake>.<
Btw some micro tips are handy such as shift clicks and how you personally play. Im starting to hotkey my buildings maybe you could give some tips on that.

[Dakonblackblade]

I have a disagrrement .I think wind should be used on ballista.And what FTW means?

[DrZaP84]

Sly: I was planning to do a game vs fiends, but I can find a new replay I suppose.
Dakon what do you mean wind should be used on ballistas?

Oh btw, FTW means For the win. So like ZaP Audios FTW ^^ jk, just using that as an example. hehe

[Sly0_0]

Well the mian damage output is the balistas which dakon says should use the wind to lift them but mecanical units are invunrable to magic spells. Well most of them(incluing wand of the wind)

[DrZaP84]

Oh I see, thanks for clearing that up. Yea Dakon winding the glaives wouldnt work.

[Dakonblackblade]

so officially from now on consider me a noob(got to try harder,got to study more)

[Sly0_0]

so officially from now on consider me a noob(got to try harder,got to study more)

You don't need to study anything but just be more observent and remember facts told to you to be a better player. Listening to these audios are enough help.

[Dakonblackblade]

Iknow man.In fact im better than ever now.Since im a rt player at the moment i got to tell these audios have helped me alot to improve my win ratio to 70%.The only problem i have is that i become a bit disoriented easily and lose focus.But i guess this is due to late hour gaming and weak comp(900 celeron 300 megs ram gforce4 mx 64 megs).Im playing in northrend and watched myself playing better than 30 lvl players on rt.I even suggested your audios to players as to improve their skill.This is to know how much i appreciate your work guys and to know that ive heard all your audios ftom 1.18 patch.

[Sly0_0]

rt? wat type 2v2 3vs3? Btw playing solos gets you better the fastest. You should know why you lost, and fix it next game. I think you need to MASS games to get better but playing 1 game which tought you alot is better than 10 games and just saying " he played better" and start loading your next game.

[Dakonblackblade]

No man i play enough games and only 2v2.I recognize when i play horribly.I just dont have durability in my game.I have nice start better mid and horrible end game.I just lost a game we had the upper hand because i had 50 food army and 3000 gold.Had crushed them when from nowhere came the hydras.Shitty game .The point is i dont know when to break the limit of 50 food.I know of course but dont do it.We did shit in that game.Really i cant believe how we lost that.Shit.Sorry zap for messing your thread.Going to strategy forum.Just said it to get it out of me

[DrZaP84]

Dakon its ok man, a good time to break the 50 food mark in most games is when you have an expo up. But that is not always true. You should not be afraid to break the 50 food mark. The best time however is probably when you have an expo up. Except in the case of the map avalanche. In which, I would probably break the 50 food count once you have won some battles, and know you have the upperhand.

[Sly0_0]

i thing. If a shop is available, but 1 scroll of healing. 1 scoll of protection. And if you think they will nuke(from previous skirmishes.)get a potion of invisability for 100g. After that, put up a expo and start your battle. All this cost alot of gold so i suggest selling certian items. This is only if your doing a creep strategy(usually what humans do) It's a whole different story if your tecing, etc. Play solo, i can't stand bad allies, u think they good cause there lvl 25 or sumthing yet they mass foots and camp at their base and ask for help when they getting harassed. Play solo or get arraange team with a same skilled player as you, since you could actually have a plan and do sum teamwork instead of winging it in rt.

And avalance(rolling hills also), i think is one of the maps which could really give you a easy win if you know how to use the map. A long time ago me and my partner were harassing while setting up a tower beside the rocks as the power takes out the rocks. After the harasee our heros come back and milia creep the mid mind and make 1 expo to mine from 2 mines.

I wonder if a flamestrike is able to cut pass the rocks to milita creep it. It would be imba if humans could do that but nowadays human should get this small advantage if it works.