What Can I Dew

[BigMacDaddy]

http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=22588&lc=true

undead vs human is completely imbalanced, for osme reason I get bitched at for massing towers, but when I don't this happens. This undead was 100% outplayed at the beginning, yet when he gets destros he can come in and defeat my army by 1. nuking my heroes and 2. picking off my riflemen/priests one by one. 5 "medium armor" anti-caster units destroys an entire army.

[iloveenrisel]

theres a reason why pros mass towers against ud. dont be ashamed to win

[DestinyAwaits]

There is NOTHING WRONG with massing towers. People bitch/complain/whin about massing towers because they are losing. (And most people don't like to lose)

[SuDd3N_D34tH]

There is NOTHING WRONG with massing towers. People bitch/complain/whin about massing towers because they are losing. (And most people don't like to lose)

Its true. nothing is wrong aout massing towers. Just the players who fight against it make it sound like nothing is wrong.
But, in a sense, it is. You're not really enjoying wc3 IMO when u play. Like, playing a guy who does am/bm/sorc, all that is more fun to play against, y'know what i mean? And, massing towers is...not fun to play against. Don't know how to explain it. I don't play human or ud but, there has to be more than one way to beat ud. I've seen it done b4.

[DestinyAwaits]

Its true. nothing is wrong aout massing towers. Just the players who fight against it make it sound like nothing is wrong.
But, in sense, it is. You're not really enjoying wc3 IMO when i play. Like, playing a guy who does am/bm/sorc, all that is more fun to play against, y'know what i mean?

Massing towers is not enjoying wc3? You don't think that all those complains/whines/insults from the other side is not funny? XD
IMO, massing towers add more enjoyment to wc3, especially seeing how the other people (especially noobs) react to it. XD

[Axslav24Q7]

hey bigmac, posting here for help though u must be pretty desperate :(. Anyway if you want the bitter truth, you did not outplay him at all early game. In fact he outplayed you pretty badly. not only did he get ur foot early, but he way outcrept you when he had a dk and u had an am, and when u were more powerful then him (b/c of his fast tech) and had a good shot at hurting him significantly, you ran ur am into his base got it stuck and lost a tp for only one gul.

If you crept a lot less conservatively (you coulda easily crept a merchant/merc camp/lab with the help of a few militia (and a footmen scout knowing that his hero wasn't around) you coulda easily been llv 3 when he was still 2 during ur first attack where u got your am trapped, also using clap on guls and stuff like that woulda helped.

On the note of mass towers. You'll never beat a smart player massing towers that you couldn't beat much easier w/o massing towers. All mass towers does is makes the game less micro based and more intelligence based at a HUGE cost to the player massing towers). Mass towers basically will win you games you would have lost against players who micro much better but aren't smart players and will lose you games you would have won against players who micro worse but are smart players.

[Axslav24Q7]

hey bigmac, posting here for help though u must be pretty desperate :(. Anyway if you want the bitter truth, you did not outplay him at all early game. In fact he outplayed you pretty badly. not only did he get ur foot early, but he way outcrept you when he had a dk and u had an am, and when u were more powerful then him (b/c of his fast tech) and had a good shot at hurting him significantly, you ran ur am into his base got it stuck and lost a tp for only one gul.

If you crept a lot less conservatively (you coulda easily crept a merchant/merc camp/lab with the help of a few militia (and a footmen scout knowing that his hero wasn't around) you coulda easily been llv 3 when he was still 2 during ur first attack where u got your am trapped, also using clap on guls and stuff like that woulda helped.

On the note of mass towers. You'll never beat a smart player massing towers that you couldn't beat much easier w/o massing towers. All mass towers does is makes the game less micro based and more intelligence based (at a HUGE cost to the player massing towers). Mass towers basically will win you games you would have lost against players who micro much better but aren't smart players and will lose you games you would have won against players who micro worse but are smart players.

[Axslav24Q7]

oops sorry double post

[BigMacDaddy]

i love you axslav! :P just kinda interseting how only destroyers can defeat my entire army

[Vespertine]

i love you axslav! :P just kinda interseting how only destroyers can defeat my entire armyWatch pro replays, with ToD being a prime example. Mass surprise gyros with flak cannon and at least one attack upgrade is preferrable. It's easy to surprise him too because they build so fast... you can have a control group full of them in no time, especially with dual workshop.

[rudiger533]

Boy, watched a bunch of UD v HU replays recently (blizzcon), and I have to say I feel for the HU. In my opinion, massing towers don't work against mass destros. I'm quite serious. With death coil, the 900 hp, unholy aura, magic immunity and minimal micro, you almost can't kill those things, let alone with stationary heavy armor towers. Destros on the other hand can easily ff those things to oblivion. IMO, save your money and don't build towers because 10 towers will fall in as many seconds. Alt-qq is your best bet. If that's not your style, then plan for it early and mass those gyros.

Don't worry about the loss. Blizzard really messed things up when they introduced those things. 2 of 4 races basically can't handle destros.

btw, shackles don't work on destros, huh?

[teneighty]

2 of 4 races basically can't handle destros.



uhh whats the other one besides human? i hope you're not suggesting orc struggles versus undead...

[Axslav24Q7]

Boy, watched a bunch of UD v HU replays recently (blizzcon), and I have to say I feel for the HU. In my opinion, massing towers don't work against mass destros. I'm quite serious. With death coil, the 900 hp, unholy aura, magic immunity and minimal micro, you almost can't kill those things, let alone with stationary heavy armor towers. Destros on the other hand can easily ff those things to oblivion. IMO, save your money and don't build towers because 10 towers will fall in as many seconds. Alt-qq is your best bet. If that's not your style, then plan for it early and mass those gyros.

Don't worry about the loss. Blizzard really messed things up when they introduced those things. 2 of 4 races basically can't handle destros.

btw, shackles don't work on destros, huh?

you do realize that
a) in a striaght fight rifles in equal food completely dominate dests in equal food (althoug they'll just snipe you so does't work so well)
b) even w/o shackles hawks still beat dest
c) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making your own gyros you'll own themeasily (assuming u run ur gyros if they have mana)
d) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making tanks the dest will get raped rly rly quickly.

example rep of tanks >>> dest (http://www.rsgaming.com/download.php?id=23)

[stevey]

I used to think Ne mirror was the worst matchup in the game, but UD vs Hu definitely pushes it hard. Although as an UD my reasons for hating the matchup (Hu tower laming) are probably a lot different than yours.

[BonJar]

Boy, watched a bunch of UD v HU replays recently (blizzcon), and I have to say I feel for the HU. In my opinion, massing towers don't work against mass destros. I'm quite serious. With death coil, the 900 hp, unholy aura, magic immunity and minimal micro, you almost can't kill those things, let alone with stationary heavy armor towers. Destros on the other hand can easily ff those things to oblivion. IMO, save your money and don't build towers because 10 towers will fall in as many seconds. Alt-qq is your best bet. If that's not your style, then plan for it early and mass those gyros.

Don't worry about the loss. Blizzard really messed things up when they introduced those things. 2 of 4 races basically can't handle destros.

btw, shackles don't work on destros, huh?
good post...or..eh...not good post ='( I don't need the explanation because Axlav already gave it to you. I'm just curious about which the "other" race is..because Orc vs UD is a well known Orc favoring matchup at top level, even said by Grubby (Which surely is your great hero) to be the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Night Elf never had a problem with Destroyers since their massable unit > Destroyers even if the UD is supergsu and the Elf goes afk in the battle. So left is UD...and I hope you can't be serious talking about an imbalance in a mirror matchup?

[rudiger533]

my points were very specific.
1. Don't build towers against destros
2. Orcs have it hard against mass destros (Note, I'm not saying UD pwns orcs. I'm saying once UD gets mass destros, orcs can't do squat)

Axlav, I already said mass gyros. You must be very smart to repeat what I said. And if HU went tanks, you UD would be crying about the lameness.

[fuzzytoad]

When orcs go against mass destroyers, the orc looses. The problem is that it's almost impossible to get their before the orc has like 3 expos and 100 food worth of wyvern/bats.

Maybe as a human player this will teach you to start using new strats other than am/mk rifles/caster, since obviously it's not working. From my understanding, banish+holy light+storm bolt is a hell of a better nuke that nova/coil/impale.

The general opinion is that mass towers makes the game boring. The only people who like it is the human players themselves. If you want to abuse towers/gyros/tanks in the game, dont complain about undead abusing their destroyers. Because seige is so crappy in wc3, and towers are so good, there is very little anyone can do. I remeber a friend playing ud v hu at my house and all the humans did was mass expo with 5 militia and towers. Then the human made 2 workshops and rallied steam tanks to my friend's base. My friend finished off the opponents archmage a couple of times early on, but after the second expo got up, the human didnt bother reviving it anymore.

[BlueCow]

mac i want to make sweet sweet love to you, but anyways, mr. Vespertine hit it with the suprise gyros, pop up an expo not at ure natural fairly early, get one or 2 workshops there (i'd say 2 for that many destros) and just pump those gyros like whoa :D

[Feredir]

Boy, watched a bunch of UD v HU replays recently (blizzcon), and I have to say I feel for the HU. In my opinion, massing towers don't work against mass destros. I'm quite serious. With death coil, the 900 hp, unholy aura, magic immunity and minimal micro, you almost can't kill those things, let alone with stationary heavy armor towers. Destros on the other hand can easily ff those things to oblivion. IMO, save your money and don't build towers because 10 towers will fall in as many seconds. Alt-qq is your best bet. If that's not your style, then plan for it early and mass those gyros.

Don't worry about the loss. Blizzard really messed things up when they introduced those things. 2 of 4 races basically can't handle destros.

btw, shackles don't work on destros, huh?

i wish shackles wasnt a spell like enare/net of corse if shackles wasnt a spell u would b cing alot of complaining from ud but also it would b kind of imba cuz it seems 2 me that the only counter agaist humans with ud is dests

[BigMacDaddy]

nah just watch someone like boo play, he doesnt use destros all the time =\

[salty-]

I used to think Ne mirror was the worst matchup in the game, but UD vs Hu definitely pushes it hard. Although as an UD my reasons for hating the matchup (Hu tower laming) are probably a lot different than yours.

well yeah beacuse you are ud, that's why it's lame...if you were human or ne or orc, you wouldn't care as much..

[LeavePlz]

massing towers always has been and always will be a cheap strat especially against UD. theres no point in playing a game of mass towers. you wanna do that then go play tower wars or some gay shit like that. human players fail to realize that sorcs feed destroyers so why in the hell would u even think about getting them? destroyers are not the thing that makes this matchup "imbalanced." its actually the tri hero nuking power and the frenzied ghouls+w/e aboms u have. if ur gonna fight an UD army with rifle caster then u cant just get 10 rifles and expect to win against masses of melee, tri hero, and dests. mix shit up, get gyros, dhawks, tanks, and rifles. this matchup may be imbalanced but its not imbalanced to the point that u have to make 25 towers in ur base. this isnt starcraft this is wc3. towers were meant to fend off rushes and harasses not make ur base invulnerable.

[Flayl]

massing towers always has been and always will be a cheap strat especially against UD. theres no point in playing a game of mass towers. you wanna do that then go play tower wars or some gay shit like that. human players fail to realize that sorcs feed destroyers so why in the hell would u even think about getting them? destroyers are not the thing that makes this matchup "imbalanced." its actually the tri hero nuking power and the frenzied ghouls+w/e aboms u have. if ur gonna fight an UD army with rifle caster then u cant just get 10 rifles and expect to win against masses of melee, tri hero, and dests. mix shit up, get gyros, dhawks, tanks, and rifles. this matchup may be imbalanced but its not imbalanced to the point that u have to make 25 towers in ur base. this isnt starcraft this is wc3. towers were meant to fend off rushes and harasses not make ur base invulnerable.
You need at least 1 sorc late game if you ever want to get a hero kill against UD

[Axslav24Q7]

my points were very specific.
1. Don't build towers against destros
2. Orcs have it hard against mass destros (Note, I'm not saying UD pwns orcs. I'm saying once UD gets mass destros, orcs can't do squat (unless they get an orb on their blademaster/tc and use it +poison verns to get rid of dest rly easily))

Axlav, I already said mass gyros. You must be very smart to repeat what I said. (I thought my post was saying how gyros do rly well against dest) And if HU went tanks, you UD would be crying about the lameness. (Or they could switch to meat wagons to slaughter the tanks)

edited for correctness

[Infernal]

massing towers always has been and always will be a cheap strat especially against UD. theres no point in playing a game of mass towers. you wanna do that then go play tower wars or some gay shit like that. human players fail to realize that sorcs feed destroyers so why in the hell would u even think about getting them? destroyers are not the thing that makes this matchup "imbalanced." its actually the tri hero nuking power and the frenzied ghouls+w/e aboms u have. if ur gonna fight an UD army with rifle caster then u cant just get 10 rifles and expect to win against masses of melee, tri hero, and dests. mix shit up, get gyros, dhawks, tanks, and rifles. this matchup may be imbalanced but its not imbalanced to the point that u have to make 25 towers in ur base. this isnt starcraft this is wc3. towers were meant to fend off rushes and harasses not make ur base invulnerable.

Towers are a part of the game, deal with it.

[LeavePlz]

Towers are a part of the game, deal with it.

as destroyers are...

[Axslav24Q7]

as destroyers are...

as whiners are...

[BigMacDaddy]

kinda ironic i made top replay vs an undead =\

[rudiger533]

you do realize that :angry:
a) in a striaght fight rifles in equal food completely dominate dests in equal food (althoug they'll just snipe you so does't work so well)
b) even w/o shackles hawks still beat dest
c) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making your own gyros you'll own themeasily (assuming u run ur gyros if they have mana)
d) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making tanks the dest will get raped rly rly quickly.

example rep of tanks >>> dest (http://www.rsgaming.com/download.php?id=23)

Axslav, you dumb fuck. You were specifically implying I don't know about gyros and asking if I realize blah blah blah. And you even quoted me. Anyway, I don't know really know why I'm stooping to reply to you dumbass comments.

Oh yeah, here's why. 1 blademaster with orb CANNOT stop mass dests. You know, it's not really a counter if I can kill 1 dest every few minutes. Even a level 10 blademaster with lvl 3 crit strike does <80 dps. That's ~10 s to kill 1 dest amongst an army of them. Let's not forget dk with instant heal. Don't be stupid. I don't think ANY body will agree with you on that point.

[El.Cid]

Axslav, you dumb fuck. You were specifically implying I don't know about gyros and asking if I realize blah blah blah. And you even quoted me. Anyway, I don't know really know why I'm stooping to reply to you dumbass comments.

Oh yeah, here's why. 1 blademaster with orb CANNOT stop mass dests. You know, it's not really a counter if I can kill 1 dest every few minutes. Even a level 10 blademaster with lvl 3 crit strike does <80 dps. That's ~10 s to kill 1 dest amongst an army of them. Let's not forget dk with instant heal. Don't be stupid. I don't think ANY body will agree with you on that point.
Your complaining because your ONE hero cannot own mass dests?

...


You do realize that
a) in a striaght fight rifles in equal food completely dominate dests in equal food (althoug they'll just snipe you so does't work so well)
b) even w/o shackles hawks still beat dest
c) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making your own gyros you'll own themeasily (assuming u run ur gyros if they have mana)
d) using 1/2 the money they put into dests into making tanks the dest will get raped rly rly quickly.

As good of a player you are Axslav, you don't realize a few things about this matchup.

a) In a straight fight of equal food, rifles will not > destroyers TAKING IN TO ACCOUNT heros. The nova + coil support on destroyers will beat your rifle caster, AM / MK combo.
b) Hawks vs destroyers is very tough, if you take in to account Nova and no upgrades on both units. I would give it to Destroyers however. Usually, mass hawks = an expo or two, so you would most likely upgrade your hawks, but still, nova simply rapes Hawks.
c)Gyros take a lot more money than destroyers do, as well as the upgrades it requires to run them. And the problem remains, what happens when he switches to abom ghoul, abom fiend, etc? You are left with your heros, gyros, and alt + qq.
d)Tanks definitely don't require 1/2 the money as destroyers do, add to the fact it will take longer to get tanks, and you will need an expo to fund them. Tanks without upgrades are nowhere near as effective.

I don't think this matchup is as severely imbalanced as some of you clearly do, as a lot of it requires micro, and strategy, indeed more so from the human mid-late game than the UD.

Vs fiends is another story. They are just so easy to micro..

[BigMacDaddy]

ive found that vs fiend users, if you upgrade to defend on your 4-5 original footmen, then siwtch to rifles and push right at tier 2, you can take down all the fiends, andtheir slow tech usually costs them the game, but i agree, ridicioulsy easy to micro

[Axslav24Q7]

Your complaining because your ONE hero cannot own mass dests?

...


As good of a player you are Axslav, you don't realize a few things about this matchup.

a) In a straight fight of equal food, rifles will not > destroyers TAKING IN TO ACCOUNT heros. The nova + coil support on destroyers will beat your rifle caster, AM / MK combo.
b) Hawks vs destroyers is very tough, if you take in to account Nova and no upgrades on both units. I would give it to Destroyers however. Usually, mass hawks = an expo or two, so you would most likely upgrade your hawks, but still, nova simply rapes Hawks.

Both a and b are only true on a map where u cant get heal scrolls (although rifles v dest w/o an expo is very hard b/c of the hit and run)

c)Gyros take a lot more money than destroyers do, as well as the upgrades it requires to run them. And the problem remains, what happens when he switches to abom ghoul, abom fiend, etc? You are left with your heros, gyros, and alt + qq.

i'd only go gyros if i think they'll make 5 or more dest in which case for the price of 5 dest (plus the dest upgrade which almsot costs as much as the flak upgrade for gyros) you could get 17 or 18 gyros (dont feel like doing the exact math) also take into account that 17-8 gyros is 2/3 the food of 5 dest which actaully matters a whole lot due to upkeep and cost of farms etc. So basically its more like 20 or so gyros when rly 12 would own 5 dest pretty easily.
And when they switch to other units you switch also (remember they spent money on 5 dest when u spent money on only 12-14 gyros (YOU WON OUT!!!)

d)Tanks definitely don't require 1/2 the money as destroyers do, add to the fact it will take longer to get tanks, and you will need an expo to fund them. Tanks without upgrades are nowhere near as effective.

tanks are only for dest in real mass in which case you get 1/2 to 2/3 the number of tanks as they get dest and their dest are rendered almost useless (not to mention the base destruction capability you gained) Btw 2/3 the number of tanks as they have dest costs you 1/2 the gold and just over 1/3 the food cost (meaning you could throw in a few griffs or knights to crush their heroes)
the example replay i linked to on my earlier post shows this concept well (both us had expoes also)

I don't think this matchup is as severely imbalanced as some of you clearly do, as a lot of it requires micro, and strategy, indeed more so from the human mid-late game than the UD.

Vs fiends is another story. They are just so easy to micro..

fiends are easy for me just because defended foots into expansion is rly hard for them to stop (they usually get dr 2nd then and try to push you but defend so fun!!)

dest are tough because of their magic immune and speed not b/c of their direct fighting abilities (any other tier 3 air does a LOT more damage)

[Axslav24Q7]

Axslav, you dumb fuck. You were specifically implying I don't know about gyros and asking if I realize blah blah blah. And you even quoted me. Anyway, I don't know really know why I'm stooping to reply to you dumbass comments.

Oh yeah, here's why. 1 blademaster with orb CANNOT stop mass dests. You know, it's not really a counter if I can kill 1 dest every few minutes. Even a level 10 blademaster with lvl 3 crit strike does <80 dps. That's ~10 s to kill 1 dest amongst an army of them. Let's not forget dk with instant heal. Don't be stupid. I don't think ANY body will agree with you on that point.

i dont think i said one blademaster can stop dests, i think he can stop them from running while a certain flying units that triples dest damage to light armor kills them ^.6.

[Bloodlust_Peon]

lol :(

I'm towering but i don't know if i have enough. I have about 20 towers in a base, maybe it isn't because everytime the ud push, my 20 towers and a hero can't fend them off.

So i ask, what is the optimal amount of towers for
1. A main base
2. An expansion

[Flayl]

dest are tough because of their magic immune and speed not b/c of their direct fighting abilities (any other tier 3 air does a LOT more damage)
I think you are underestimating destroyers with mana, unless you are implying that they are difficult to escape from because of their speed.

[Flayl]

lol :(

I'm towering but i don't know if i have enough. I have about 20 towers in a base, maybe it isn't because everytime the ud push, my 20 towers and a hero can't fend them off.

So i ask, what is the optimal amount of towers for
1. A main base
2. An expansion
- 1 arcane + 3 guard max + skill
- 5 guard max + skill

And that's still pushing it, and probably over the edge for a lot of undead players.

[Axslav24Q7]

I think you are underestimating destroyers with mana, unless you are implying that they are difficult to escape from because of their speed.

even with mana they do less then griffons (although not too much less), but the vast majority of the time they have no mana (only for like the first unit kill) its not that hard to just sorta avoid them after they abosrb up stat mana it does down pretty quick. (also hit and running against them so they use a few attacks which uses up their mana even quicker)