Is there any way to beat Permabash heros?

[Kyndig]

I just finished a DOTA game with a stacked Sven (250+ damage with crits) against a perma-bashing Troll using rage/rampage with 3 cranium bashers. Even though I had higher level items and higher level 25 to his level 20, I got raped. Apparently bash goes through avatar, as my BKB proved useless as well. What's the preferred method for deal with permabash? Use permabash yourself to get off the first hit, or try to kill him before he gets first hit?

[AvengerxZ]

Teamwork, permabash doesn't have much merit when you have a decent team with disables. In a 1vs1 scenario the best way is to either have a spell that gives them a chance to miss, troll w/ blind for instance, or have evasion yourself. That being said, butterfly works decently. That will still only leave you a few chances to hit inbetween his bashers, though, so the best way is to just stick with a team and combo him with spells.

[Kyndig]

Thanks for the tip. Didn't think about getting a butterfly, that would allow me get off a stun in between bashes. I'll keep that in mind when facing permabashers. :)

Teamwork works well too, as you noted - just the situation I was thinking of was more 1v1 oriented.

By the way, does evasion stack with multiple butterflies? Are there any other items that give evasion?

[AvengerxZ]

Thanks for the tip. Didn't think about getting a butterfly, that would allow me get off a stun in between bashes. I'll keep that in mind when facing permabashers. :)

Teamwork works well too, as you noted - just the situation I was thinking of was more 1v1 oriented.

By the way, does evasion stack with multiple butterflies? Are there any other items that give evasion?Evasion does not stack. When you have both a butterfly and a skill with evasion the one with the lower chance to dodge will override the other. Radiance also gives evasion, but only 8%, very little. For instance, say you have Phantom Assassin with maxed out blur and decide to buy a butterfly. Blur gives 28% evasion, butterfly gives 25%, thus you will have 25% chance to evade. If you then buy a radiance you will then have only 8% evasion, bad choice! All in all, only buy it if you have less than 25% evasion from a skill or no evade at all.

[blaze]

Guinsoo's anyone? THE best way to deal with permabashers is to immobilize them. Guinsoo's is the best way to do it, followed by a stun of your own if you have it.

[AvengerxZ]

And once they get out of guinsoos and stun you get permabashed again. Do you really think you can kill a faceless void, who has 25% evasion from both spells and attacks, will die in that 5 - 6 seconds you have him disabled? Very unlikely.

[Slaughter]

well i think guinsoo is a good choice if tehre is a stunner
well permabashers are too annoying

[blaze]

And once they get out of guinsoos and stun you get permabashed again. Do you really think you can kill a faceless void, who has 25% evasion from both spells and attacks, will die in that 5 - 6 seconds you have him disabled? Very unlikely.
So you're telling me it would be better to have a small Evasion % over being able to hex a hero? Let's be honest here, that is just silly. If you get stunned once, you're pretty much not going anywhere. Guinsoo's stops him from attacking at all for a decent amount of time, which gives you time to do one of three things: attack him and prepare to stun again if you can, run away, or wait for backup from teammates. Evasion lets you do neither of these.

[AvengerxZ]

So you're telling me it would be better to have a small Evasion % over being able to hex a hero? Let's be honest here, that is just silly. If you get stunned once, you're pretty much not going anywhere. Guinsoo's stops him from attacking at all for a decent amount of time, which gives you time to do one of three things: attack him and prepare to stun again if you can, run away, or wait for backup from teammates. Evasion lets you do neither of these.Small evasion %? 25% is small since when? We also already established that this is in a 1v1 scenario so cross out the wait for backup part. I'm not saying Guinsoo's is bad it's just the fact I'd rather have evasion against permabash. As you said once you get bashed once you arn't going anywhere, that just means once hex wears off you're permabashed again. Evasion protects against that to a degree. Guinsoo's works, sure, but to a limited degree. The same applies to evasion but it isn't a spell that has a fairly long cooldown and only lasts 4 seconds. Not to mention the benefits of a butterfly over Guinsoo's for the majority of heroes. Additional +50% IAS, 25% evasion, and +25 damage (+50 in the case of agility heroes). I'd take that over bonus mana and mana regeneration any day to be honest. Permabash is a tough thing to beat in 1vs1 situations regardless of what item you take. Neither are going to make you immune to it, but they are just going to help. Take your pick, I took mine.

[blaze]

Unless this is a 1v1 game, then this is in fact not a solo scenario. You may be 1on1 in a lane at any given time, but DotA depends on how well you can manage as a team. Trying to take on a permabash hero all by your lonesome is just a stupid thing to do, they will win 90% of the time. If you find yourself taking them alone in a lane, call for someone else, don't let them run all over you.

With all that in mind, taking a Butterfly on your hero just means that they can now just pick the hero assisting you to attack. Guinsoo's prevents him from doing any of that. Now, if you are the type of player who will go all gung-ho and try to take him alone, then fine, get a Butterfly and have fun getting frustrated all game because you keep dying even with your Evasion. But the smart player rarely travels alone (late game especially), so it really depends on whether or not he wants to risk dying a whole bunch (but with a chance of ending up as the killing machine of the game), or if you want to actually win.

[Kyndig]

Point taken about DOTA being more team-oriented for successful play.

However, the scenario I was enquiring about was one where it basically came down to me versus one other player, since the other players on either team had left (thanks to noob pub games). From your discussions, it sounds like permabash trumps pretty much any other item build in a solo encounter provided the permabasher can get off one hit.

[Dakonblackblade]

Well i see some other solution in this kind of situation.Get a diffusal and a guinsoo.With two purges on target their attack speed is heavily reduced which allows you to hit them more hard than ever.For 2 purges a time over 10 charges i could say you could win 5 fights.How about that?

[AvengerxZ]

Well i see some other solution in this kind of situation.Get a diffusal and a guinsoo.With two purges on target their attack speed is heavily reduced which allows you to hit them more hard than ever.For 2 purges a time over 10 charges i could say you could win 5 fights.How about that?DIffusal blade purge does not slow attack speed. Blaze, this entire discussion was based on the assumption that you were trying to go 1vs1 against a single hero, to kill him. Not a build to survive and get away, but a build to actually attempt to kill him. You are preaching to the quire about how good a Guinsoo's is, I realize this, I play this game all the time. Both of our suggestions will do something to alleviate some of the fear of permabash, so we both have decent suggestions. End of discussion.

[blaze]

Blaze, this entire discussion was based on the assumption that you were trying to go 1vs1 against a single hero, to kill him. Not a build to survive and get away, but a build to actually attempt to kill him.What's the preferred method for deal with permabash? Use permabash yourself to get off the first hit, or try to kill him before he gets first hit?
Looks to me like he was just asking to deal with permabash. In fact one of his two scenarios involves trying to kill it, but that's just what it is, a scenario. The best way to 'deal with permabash' is to simply not try and take it on by yourself : )

[AvengerxZ]

Looks to me like he was just asking to deal with permabash. In fact one of his two scenarios involves trying to kill it, but that's just what it is, a scenario. The best way to 'deal with permabash' is to simply not try and take it on by yourself : )And if you are by yourself you have to deal with it the only way possible, by yourself. In which case either of our builds works to an extent, I'm sure having both would be optimal. Oh well.

[IC.Shadow]

I don't understand why you're still discussing this, and seemingly trying to dispute that Guinsoo's works well against heroes with high rates of Bash. blaze and I disagree on lots of things in DotA, but here, he is right.

1) You can either Hex the enemy hero and then run away (preferably closer to your allies), or

2) You can Hex the enemy hero, take free shots at it for a few seconds, and then stun it again or continue attacking it/using other spells until you hopefully kill it.

A third option, if you have Lothar's Edge, is to Hex the enemy hero, attack it a bunch, and then if it is still too strong, simply Wind Walk out of there.

Guinsoo's is a much better counter to perma-Bash heroes overall than your suggestion. I'm not saying everything you've posted is wrong, I'm just saying blaze has the better idea here.

However, Guinsoo's isn't especially cheap, so you obviously have to save up some money.

[blaze]

Eul's: 1000 + 450 + 900
Oblivion: 1150 + 450 + 325
Guinsoo Scroll: 900
Total: 5175

Eaglehorn: 3450
Quarterstaff: 1150
Butterfly Recipe: 1600 (not 100% on this one, but pretty sure)
Total: 6200

Aside from the fact that it is much easier to build a Guinsoo's, (many cheap parts means not having to waste your time hoarding 3450 gold in one shot), you get far more bang for your buck.

[IC.Shadow]

Butterfly Scroll is 1400, but yeah, your point still stands. However, even though you can buy/make Guinsoo's in smaller parts, it does still cost quite a bit overall, so it's more of a mid-game solution. But since heroes don't really have any Perma-bash capabilities until mid- or late-game anyways, that's not a problem.

[simiwizard]

imho eul is the best counter to permabash heros, or at least one the best way to run away from them. if they catch you just alone just cyclone them and get the fuck out of there. nto sure if linken's sphere stops eul, though.

[AhhWhatever]

Just an idea.. how about using a Manta Style?
By using it u will achieve 2 things:
1. U will possibly get the permabash off ur ass because he will switch targets to an illusion after u split.
2. Even if u get bashed the illusions will still do both physical(cant remember the exact % of the base dmg) and Feedback damage.
Most typical permabash heroes dont have aoe dmg (Void has a 6 sec aoe disable but u cant do anything about it anyway) and cant kill the illusions off too easily.
Throw in a Guinsoo's or a Butterfly and u have a pretty decent counter although the best counter imho is to do permabash urself if u can.

[frapman]

all these ways are complicated. here it is simple. dont...get...hit. if you run he cant perma bash you. continue this strategy untill you yourself can pull of a perma bash, then own.

[IC.Shadow]

all these ways are complicated. here it is simple. dont...get...hit. if you run he cant perma bash you. continue this strategy untill you yourself can pull of a perma bash, then own.
Good luck with that when most 'perma-bash' heroes are Agility-based and move as fast or faster than your hero. If you're trying to say there's no ambushes in DotA, then I don't think you've played it with good players. The chances of you being able to 'not get hit' by a hero that has 'perma-bash' are zero if that player is even semi-good.

Edit: And Invisibility spells/abilities/runes > you

[SMRT]

Just an idea.. how about using a Manta Style?
By using it u will achieve 2 things:
1. U will possibly get the permabash off ur ass because he will switch targets to an illusion after u split.
2. Even if u get bashed the illusions will still do both physical(cant remember the exact % of the base dmg) and Feedback damage.
Most typical permabash heroes dont have aoe dmg (Void has a 6 sec aoe disable but u cant do anything about it anyway) and cant kill the illusions off too easily.
Throw in a Guinsoo's or a Butterfly and u have a pretty decent counter although the best counter imho is to do permabash urself if u can.
Yea, manta is a very good counter =D

[frapman]

ic it was a joke. and that post is only taking into consideration that you also have a hero that perma-bash is effective on (am, the wolf guy, ect.. ect...)

[n00bular]

Get 5 Blade Mails and a Heart of Tarrasque on a Centaur.

[NEoob]

Or just go Sven with treads, heart, satanic, hyperstone, bdk (in that order). By (I think) lvl 20 you will have over 3000 hp plust great dmg and attack speed, plus you have your own stun to run if you want to be a pussy.

[blaze]

Or, just go with 4 Divine Rapiers, an Aegis, and Boots on any hero.

[riotoblivion]

Or, just go with 4 Divine Rapiers, an Aegis, and Boots on any hero.
rapier without burize sucks dick =(

[NEoob]

rapier without burize sucks dick =(

agleed!

[blaze]

I think another great way to go is to have a hero with 6 Hearts of Tarrasque, that would be good too.

Or maybe a hero with Burize, Butterfly, MKB, Treads, Stygian and a Hyperstone.

[death.king]

If you are lvl 25 and are meeting a lvl 25 perma bash hero like troll,razor or rifleman(rifleman is the best) with 2xbashers,2x hyperstones,1 burize and threads. You should go guinso to disable them and then attack them. If you are meele buy 1-2x bashers and 1 hyperstone/mom to almost perma bash them after hey are disabled. Or you can always gang them :naughty:

[mr psycho]

Tiny with Aegis, heart, treads, butterfly, hyper, guinsoos would own. Craiggy exterior FTW.

[n00bular]

Try getting...

Heart + 5x Blade Mail with a strength hero (Preferably Centaur or Avernus)

[IC.Shadow]

Get 5 Blade Mails and a Heart of Tarrasque on a Centaur.
Try getting...

Heart + 5x Blade Mail with a strength hero (Preferably Centaur or Avernus)
Yeah, you did already say that before...

[mroZoZrout]

Just an idea.. how about using a Manta Style?
By using it u will achieve 2 things:
1. U will possibly get the permabash off ur ass because he will switch targets to an illusion after u split.
2. Even if u get bashed the illusions will still do both physical(cant remember the exact % of the base dmg) and Feedback damage.
Most typical permabash heroes dont have aoe dmg (Void has a 6 sec aoe disable but u cant do anything about it anyway) and cant kill the illusions off too easily.
Throw in a Guinsoo's or a Butterfly and u have a pretty decent counter although the best counter imho is to do permabash urself if u can.

i think if u get bashed u are dead so u must not be attacked so i dont think u will have time to use ww or manta if u arebashed. ok u can attack but its pointless if he goes back and just w8 until your illusion disapper. Gissmo 4 ever i think

[riotoblivion]

best counter is guinsoo and manta. but heros like troll attacking 10 times in 1 second is pretty hard to counter. so mass stunners FTW!

[sir_icemaster]

Best counters versus perma-stunners is:
-to kill him: gang him with 1 ally (2 if he is much more powerfull), u also must have at least another basher hero with u and something that disable chances of escaping
-to avoid deads: stay away/evade him and stick with your team

[Naib_Stilgar]

Best counters versus perma-stunners is:
-to kill him: gang him with 1 ally (2 if he is much more powerfull), u also must have at least another basher hero with u and something that disable chances of escaping
-to avoid deads: stay away/evade him and stick with your team

aye, the best way to counter him a permabasher is never meet one alone. permabashers are strickly 1v1 heroes and if you got a friend (or friends), then he might only be able to take one guy out before dying

tiny + craggy exterior owns ;)

[kag]

permabashers are void trol and slardar or other agility heros with 3 or more bashers.
in 1v1 combat you cant stop that.
he wil need mkb if you have disable anyways youl have a small chance to cast your spels since you are permanently bashed :D
butterfly doesnt help that much either.

[Raven.Icon]

I havent played dota that long. Only about 2 weeks or so.

But my solution to perma bash heros runs along the lines of:

The best solution of course is team work. But alot of times, in pub games, teamworks is non existent, ppl only care about themselves and will not save ur ass. I've even seen some guys hold back their spells, so when ur dead, they can kill off the enemy hero who is low on hp. Sometimes no one will use thier spells, waiting for someone else to start the hp drain, so they can get the last shot.

As a intel hero, ur best solutions is prevention. The only heros u really need to worry about is agil or strength heros with loathers edge that carry perma bash (x2), hyperstone.

Intel- Euls sceptor for cyclone(5 charges), upgrade to guinsoo+critter(active)
These items help with prention and if ur lucky, an escape. But usually ur dead before u can even use it due to bash+mad attack speed and low hp for intel heros.

The other way to counter perma bash heros is through agility items such as butterfly. Stacking up on agil is key for intel heros late game.


As a Agility hero- I go for agil+bash+attack speed increase but u must have a escape mechanism, without it, u might not survive. I usually use bounty hunter and with my items(agil,bash,hyper) i can usually get away if im getting raped, or turn the tables on them.

With agil based heros, it basically comes down to who hits who first and who has the better items. But if not, make sure u can ww out or if u dont have it, some spells such as jugs can help u get out but make sure u got enough speed/dagger/anything to outrun/disable him, cuz chances are good if u are running they will catch up.


As a strength hero- I never really played strength heros, but im guessing going bash, attack increase items, and armour items with ur huge hp should be able to showdown with any agil heros using perma bash and still live, but good idea to get loathers to ww, since u prob have a descent chance at using it.


If ur facing strength perma bash heros

Prevention is best way to fight back. Either not being in that situation, or using forms of disable such as eul's or hero spells such as stunners, voodo, etc.

I find that perma bash strength heros can be taken down by 2 hero combinations if done right, and there are many combos or tactics to use.
I usually find strength heros with perma bash easy to counter. Not saying its easy to beat them, but its easy to counter. Only agil heros with perma bash are scary, since its harder to prevent and counter or escape. Unless ur in a team environment and they can take him down fast enough or scare him into running, but alot of times, once the ff is gone, they get right back on ur ass in no time. So if ur teammates buy u time, dont run unless u have teleboots, and use it to tele to ur base imedieatley or use dagger while running and tele into a fog of war and dont use it in a manner that is too conventional of a path. Cuz he can still catch up if ur using normal road way.

[fuzzy.peach]

for every basher he buys by one urself

[Kr.Memories]

I must agree that its hard to 1v1 a perma bash lolz but in 1v1 cases Dagon first ftw if agil and well team its pretty ez to kill a agil made for 1v1's.

[Neon.HoLiDaY]

sheepstick + teamwork

[Metellus]

Moved to DOTA forum.

[mr psycho]

Keeping the would-be basher down early works, if you can help it. Usually heroes that permabash (Naix, AM, troll, Void) are all extremely crappy early, so get a nuker on them / gank them early and it helps. Of course in the cases where that isn't an option, then the teamwork needed to stop them is usually absent anyway, so it's tough. Lion or Rhasta is your best choice, as their disables are complemented by a powerful ultimate that usually puts low hp agility heroes out of commission.

[Blaster]

1) Finish off the opponent before perma bash becomes a real problem, which should be the main thing you should do. A lv25 Sven and lv20 Troll seems as if the game has been dragged for 1hour.

2) Keep Troll down early game. Any intel with a disable can do this easily, eg CM. Deny him of experience(just see observe the creeps HP and how fast your projectile attack moves. You should be able to get it easily). If he tries to farm, freeze him and whack off his HP.

[Lee-volution]

For the Guinsoo's vs. Butterfly argument, personally I think Guinsoo is a lot better. And say it was a 1v1 situation vs. a perma-stunner. If you aren't a perma-stunner yourself, Guinsoo's gives you the time to do whatever you can safely (Nuke, stun via Bolt/Stomp/etc.). Almost every hero can fall pray to perma-stun, but if this is a 1v1, then you obviously should have something up your sleeve with your hero. And with Guinsoo's, it puts you in a position to do what you can do as opposed to getting a Butterfly and hoping that it works good on your hero and that you get lucky.

[CombatSmurf]

Hunt bashers, with Rhasta... Euls scepter is fairly cheep. One charge on the scepter and your ulti.. mhmm.. on the offchance that he starts to rape your wards, just shackle or hex him, shackle is ment to be used in either case since it does dmg. Finish off with lightning and he's going byebye.
This i've tested vs a troll, im not sure it will cut it vs void, since he can dodge your spells and your ward hits.

[gasolin]

Well, yesterday i was clinkz with almost permabash-i had 2 bashers and lvl 4 strife + MKB+BKB. I was able to kill all xpt for drow with Butterfly. The evasion always let him go out of bash and his high crit was able to stop me.
So i think with Butterfly you have a pretty good chance to stop a permabash hero. and if you add Guinsoo you can win without any doubt.