Veno Ward Push Tips?

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I just played an -ar game with Venomancer. Remembering past experiences where my opponents have gone Basilus first and massed Wards in the middle lane, preferably with a spellspammer or stunner (so you can control click and focus with wards) in support, I decided to replicate this.

Although it was against terrible opposition, as it was a public game, it was the shortest full (well, almost) game of DotA I have ever played. Within 18 minutes the last tower in the middle lane had dropped and they all left.

I tried it a couple more times with mixed results, but basically, I wanted to know whether this is a viable strategy at the top levels of play and if so, what are the better skill and item builds?

Currently I go: Basilus (with Chicken), Perseverance, Oblivion Staff, Refresher, Hyperstone, Sange and Yasha and then whatever is necessary, and max Wards/Sting early on, getting Nova as necessary and levelling Strike up after Sting and Wards are both at Level 4.

[Mortifer]

imho wards is only usefull at all if your up against 100% melee opponents in your lane, if they got range (and some brains) you just feed them gold...

in msot games i play venomancer stats is even more usefull then wards and his SS+Ult combo is very powerfull, but takes a lot of mana and is hard to pull of if your going to spam wards all the time...

[Proj]

This isnt so mucha bout pushing but I write this anyway :)
Whenn I get Venomancer i choose the wards last. Because I think Shadowstrike is more usfull early game.

But whenn I got wards they r helpfull vs creeps and defending. If a lane is beeing pushed. I mass wards close the tower before the enemys reaches it. Then it will be more firepower pushing them back.
I also like to hide em with the trees so that the meele creeps cant hit em and will run around trying to hit the ward instead of me.

And they r also good for scouting, if u get close the enemys base put up some wards behind u or to ur side so u can see if the enemys r going to backstab u.

[IC.Shadow]

This is why you should get Wards at level 10, 12, 13, and 14 rather than Stats.

1) Wards are good for creeping/farming.

2) Creeps focus Wards first, meaning your units live longer, especially if you have multiple, high-level Wards.

3) Wards are excellent for scouting and preventing gang-attacks or nukes from behind. It doesn't apply to heroes that are invisible, but putting one down in an area that would make a potential ambush spot for your opponents means you'll see the hero well before you normally would. This is probably the biggest reason to get them. I use them for scouting every game once I hit level 10, and as stated in another thread, I almost never die as Venomancer. He is easily my best hero.

4) Getting level 4 Wards as soon as possible is worthwhile because level 1 Wards die almost instantly to everything, whereas level 4 Wards can withstand a lot of attacks from enemy units, meaning your allied units are able to get in far more free hits, and you're far more likely to get kills (and gold) from unit kills.



Now, I personally would not recommend getting Wards before level 10. But if you're doing an alternative build and getting Wards early in the game, put a minimum of one point into Shadow Strike. It sets up nukes very well.

For a conventional build, go SS, Poison Sting/SS/PS/SS/Poison Nova/SS/PS/PS/Wards/PN/Wardsx3/Statsx10.

For your setup, go one of the following:

1) SS/Wards/SS/Wards/SS/PN/SS/Wards/Wards/PS/PN/PSx3/Statsx10

2) SS/Wards/PS/Wards/Wards/PN/Wards/PSx3/PN/SSx3/Statsx10

[oLp]

I always go SW/PS/SW/PS/SW/ult/SW/PS etc.

by the time level 7 comes around, i'll have treads, pers and ring of basil from my massive ward spam. And if any enemy heroes try to poke at my wards i just attack them and poison sting does its magic~

I find it very hard to kill a competent opponent with a ss/ps build. Venomancer is about the mid game, but a ward build also opens a huge end-game possibility and solidifies your early game

[orcdemolisher]

Personally, i've noticed that both wards and ss build work fine..

[blaze]

Placing wards against a ranged hero is like giving them 35 gold at the cost of your mana.

[Mandos.]

i try to fit one level of ward some where among the stats mid game but other than that i just go the traditional ps/ss/ss/ps/ss/ult/ss/ps build combined with another nuking hero its very easy to get a kill at either lvl 3 or 5, as long as u are using your ps effectively and grab an early boots of speed for harass.

[N!Jr]

wards should b learnt only if there are melee heroes in ur lane cuz if they r ranged well u r feedin em gold n xp. juz go for sting n shadow strike cuz wif these u can b a good harasser. if there r only melee heroes in ur lane then put da wards juz btwn ur ranged n melee creeps so tat it can hit anywhere btwn their melee n the ranged creep. if ur opp is melee i suggest a sting or strike n wards depends on da game really. Still personally i always learn wards last no matter hu is in my lane cuz i luv fightin the opponent near my tower so i feel more secure :D anyways skill build simple juz max out sting n strike n his ulti n if u wanna kill some1 juz make sure his near yellow use ur ulti, shadow strike n then juz whack until his near dead n let him go cuz the poisons wil kill him sooner or later

[Ham_Sandwhich]

Ward placement is key to making them work early game. Obviously if you put them too far into the fray, it's easy gold for a ranged hero. You gotta have a general feel of creep combat and hero range or else you're wasting your time. Secondly, never use wards at level 1 unless you're up against melee. You get good lane control (at least against the first level of towers) if you aren't losing wards unecessarily. I also suggest taking some hits in behalf of your wards if your HP/HP regen allows. It sounds dumb but consider this: your HP regens and eventually returns (especially with the proper items)....wards do not have your survivability. Keeping wards as long as possible allows you to spam and almost singlehandedly put an enemy push to a slow, grinding halt.

In response to whoever levels Shadow Strike AND Plague Wards at the same time...it's a REALLY bad idea. After one or two Shadow Strikes, even with a Basillus, you don't have a large enough mana pool or enough regen until the latter end of mid-game/late game to be able to spam both spells effectively (remember: you are still an Agil hero). You might as well go for Sting if you're going one or the other.

Wards are a viable option against both ranged and melee....you just gotta be smart about it. Don't be retarded and just throw them around. Just because it's a spammable spell doesn't mean you can use them any old way.

In terms of Ward pushing items...I usually go....Ring of Basillus, Perseverance, Mekasm, Euls into Guinsoo, Treads and armor (Blademail if the melee gets out of hand....but Aegis if at all possible). This build allows abuse of Wards and SS with enough regen/mana pool to drop a Nova when the situation calls for it. Note that this is NOT a combat item build....if you try to 1v1 with these items, you will thoroughly get owned. The point of using these items is to keep Veno (and with Mek...other heroes) pushing and alive in combat as long as possible. Nothing is more annoying to defend than heroes than can be healed/defended while being shot at by poison in all directions.

If anyone is gonna flame me about getting a Veno combat build...get something like Lothars, S&Y, Butters and Treads....get wards as last 4 skills. I'm proposing an alternative build for those interested in doing something interesting with Veno.

[oLp]

Agreed~
Wards are one of the most underrated spells in the game. Basically, you're creating a pathing blocker that attacks. If you get good at ward placement, it's entirely likely that you can trap enemy heroes in awkward situations (ie, between trees, creeps, etc.)
Also, I remember one instance where I was 1;1 a N'aix. I shot him with poison sting a few times and a shadowstrike, and, after a few seconds, it brought him down to 1 hp. I chased him through a tower, except he was faster than me, so all i did was lay down a ward between us and its shot birdged the gap and killed him. Certainly one of the most resounding 'leet plays' I can recall.

[killermon]

why would u go refresher?

[IC.Shadow]

why would u go refresher?
Possibly because his ultimate does a lot of damage and slows enemy units as they try to run away. It's not the greatest item for him, but since his ultimate is powerful and slows all units around him, it could be worth it.

[AvengerxZ]

Poison Nova doesn't slow, it only deals damage over time. Refresher isn't needed for Venomancer in my opinion. It's cooldown is fairly low, and extremely low if you have Aghanim's Scepter.

[IC.Shadow]

Hmmm. :o

I could have sworn I was slowed the other day playing against a Venomancer who spammed his ultimate frequently, and I believe the text for the spell used to say "and slows slightly". I thought it was a 7% reduction (which isn't much, but enough that you notice you're not moving quite as quickly). However, I could be mistaken, and you play much more often than I do, so you are probably right now. :)

[oLp]

No, poison sting is the one that slightly slows mspeed. Nova only does AoE damage over 12 seconds.

[Ham_Sandwhich]

Don't go Refresher...the mana needed to support a double nova and refresh would be too demanding. Plus...it's a waste when you could get more useful items.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Anyway, the whole ward placement issue was what I was trying to get at. Say you're in the middle lane - place two wards right at the edge of your ramp, one on either side. These are well out of range of ranged heroes, and with the added firepower, you won't generally be pushed back after creep wave 1. This means you can move forward and place two wards, one on either side of the opposition ramp. As soon as it looks like one is going to die, deny it, and continue. By the time you are pushed back, the other two wards will have burned out and you can place new ones as necessary.

Think of it as lots and lots of denying.

Refresher is so that when you get a huge mana pool later on (with Agahnim's and other items you may want to get) you can use Nova twice. It may cost a good 1000+ mana, but it's worth it against large ganks.

[aRKaNg3l]

Wards first is not a good idea at all. Like blaze said its 35 gold to them at the cost of your mana. The last thing you want to be doing is feeding your oppoinent gold. Another point to consider is that poison nova can never actually KILL a unit. Poison nova can only reduce the targets health to 1. Without having gone shadow strike you have just lost much of your killing power during the early game. One of the benefits of venomancer is he is very likely to still kill you even if you kill him first. Running enemies that get away will no longer die either. You cannot rely on poison sting as its duration cant match nova.

Refresher is also an extremely bad idea. Casting nova twice in a row for team battles is redundant as it doesnt even stack. Besides, you need insane amounts of mana to pull off that combo. Aganhims is the much better choice, giving you a boost to much needed survivability, reducing the cooldown of nova and increasing its damage.

[oLp]

Level 4 wards have 450 hp and do 42 piercing damage. You can have up to 6 placed at a time. Unless you're a complete idiot at warding,I don't see how the enemy will be able to kill it. Even if they're standing there shooting it, just run up and poison sting.

[Turbo164]

No, poison sting is the one that slightly slows mspeed. Nova only does AoE damage over 12 seconds.

Sting slows attack speed, not move speed (been 5-10% for as long as I can remember, nothing in patchnotes so I assume it's unchanged)

[NodL]

Would be pretty nice to just max out wards and attributes against a melee hero though, you'd get all the creeps :D. (Ward's piercing does alot of dmg to creeps)