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StLaNg
10-21-2004, 03:27 PM
Yeah i can stop it quite easly, just costs me a milita of my wood peons wich slows my tech by about 15 seconds, however i usually slow them more than they would slow me, with my bm rifle harass.

Also, talking about tanking; not necessary. All rifles will take damage, (roughly 300) along with hero. Just go back home pick up a scrool of regen and a clarity, and in one minute you are ready to return.

yeah
10-22-2004, 03:39 AM
in solo this strat isnt better than the usual build. but i will try it in 2on2!

Willy
10-22-2004, 01:02 PM
Fast Rifles is imbalanced.

StLaNg
10-22-2004, 03:22 PM
Fast Rifles is imbalanced.

Expand on that idea, because I dont feel it is atall

Killer[K]night
10-22-2004, 04:00 PM
Fast Rifles is imbalanced.
isnt it amazing what ppl call imbalance its like me callling fast fined build imbalnce

StLaNg
10-22-2004, 04:28 PM
what can you do, where there are people who are fine with the game, there will be whiney biatches what can yeah do?

zEro.pk
10-22-2004, 05:00 PM
easily ownable by 2 to 3 archers !
Dude! wake up!

Killer[K]night
10-22-2004, 08:32 PM
easily ownable by 2 to 3 archers !
Dude! wake up!
its not a solo game u idoit 2vs2 this strat works ok u maybe suck but it works if u knoe what ur doing

Dob-The-Knob
10-23-2004, 07:34 AM
Damn, that's 1337. i tried it and it works beautifully, you dont really need footies with this build becuase u get rifles around the same time that you would usually get a footie. thanks

InfestInc.
10-23-2004, 08:44 AM
seriously ... late rifles is usualy best... cause early vs ud = wow 12 ghouls owned my 3 rifles hmmm.... esrly rifle = hmm why do those grunts with speed scroll kick my ass ?? early rifle = lets just switch 2 archers they own rifles + cost less so i can tech faster 2 bears while owning his ass with archers ... early rifle = hmm... those damn footmen with defend r so strong ... i think i should tp out ....

so enless u c double aow build i say that fast rifles isnt that good

StLaNg
10-23-2004, 09:51 AM
seriously ... late rifles is usualy best... cause early vs ud = wow 12 ghouls owned my 3 rifles hmmm.... esrly rifle = hmm why do those grunts with speed scroll kick my ass ?? early rifle = lets just switch 2 archers they own rifles + cost less so i can tech faster 2 bears while owning his ass with archers ... early rifle = hmm... those damn footmen with defend r so strong ... i think i should tp out ....

so enless u c double aow build i say that fast rifles isnt that good

Do you not understand? this is a TEAM build not a solo build. yeah, there are limited uses of this strat in 1v1, however very useful in team

rizzle
10-23-2004, 12:18 PM
cant c this working too well in a rush situation... what will defend ur base?

Nightfish
10-23-2004, 01:33 PM
It works pretty similar to a straight huntress build for NE, I'd guess. And that's really standard. I use the straight rifles build order frequently in 2 vs 2 and I get rushed almost every game. Still, we haven't lost a single match to rushes yet. Three rifles and my hero are easily enough to fend off rushes. Not to mention that new rifles keep poping out all the time. If you just attack move your army it probably doesn't work, though. You do need some "micro". ;) It just takes some practice.

I can't really comment on how this works in solo as I find solo boring and thust don't play solo.

IC.Shadow
10-23-2004, 02:52 PM
Do you not understand? this is a TEAM build not a solo build. yeah, there are limited uses of this strat in 1v1, however very useful in team
It's for both solo and team. It is just more difficult to use in solo.
cant c this working too well in a rush situation... what will defend ur base?
I realise the thread is long, and it takes effort to read it all, but that's been asked and answered many times already.

SlyyDaugg
10-23-2004, 03:09 PM
I been using this in RD3v3 games almost exclusively lately, and it's been owning hard. After I get 3 or 4 rifles, I tier up. During tier up I build my second barracks, upgrade rifles at blacksmith and get 4-6 more rifle. After keep, I build workshop and sanctum, pump about 4 mortars and a few priest and if all has gone decently for the team at that point, we hit and it's usually gg with my army being, without question, the deciding factor. Alot of times the mortar ownage on enemy buildings during battle will bring enemy morale to it's bottom.

Flying_Machine
11-02-2004, 11:01 AM
OMG the build is the best thing since RoC mass caster abuse

Jet518
11-04-2004, 09:50 PM
ok this strat good in at's?

StLaNg
11-04-2004, 10:48 PM
yeah sure y not, like example... you fast rifle, your mate fast hunts. Viable in many situations in AT.

I_PONETH_J00
11-05-2004, 05:29 AM
hmmm dont really see how this is faster than most =o

just finish altar/burrow and you can still get rax/smith up in time :D

Nightfish
11-05-2004, 05:42 AM
If you don't see how this is faster, try both variants and take a look at what gets the rifles out sooner. ;)

IC.Shadow
11-05-2004, 07:57 PM
hmmm dont really see how this is faster than most =o

just finish altar/burrow and you can still get rax/smith up in time :D
Helps if you actually read the thread to see why that is less effective.

I_PONETH_J00
11-06-2004, 04:37 PM
ok yeah i tried it yeah your right man thats unique thx for it!
:p

Hacker
11-06-2004, 07:04 PM
how abt a 1.17 bo replay?

Nightfish
11-07-2004, 03:42 AM
how abt a 1.17 bo replay?

There are several 1.17 replays in this thread. They're just not on the last page. ;) Try going back a couple pages, I'm sure you'll find them.

The_Teleporter
11-07-2004, 03:43 PM
And if they harass(NE/Orc)? :(

Nightfish
11-07-2004, 04:13 PM
And if they harass(NE/Orc)? :(

Micro? Get militia? Also: Read the thread? I think this has been answered like 5 times on each page or so... :lol:

Amnesty
11-07-2004, 04:20 PM
LOL. Micro? Oh my.. Militia? No way!!! :P You've got way too much common sense Fish. ;)

Surround that biatch and it's GG harass.

Elsha-of-IEL
11-12-2004, 06:31 AM
interesting. i'll have to see how this works against my rifle BO, which i use vs UD with my pally strat :happy: i'll compare the two, this may help. this one doesn't leave room for an arcane tower though t.t will have to fit that in somehow, hmm...

Nightfish
11-12-2004, 06:39 AM
this one doesn't leave room for an arcane tower though t.t will have to fit that in somehow, hmm...

Take a look at kyndig's version on page 8 (?) it leaves room for an arcane or a guard tower. ^_^

Chavez
11-18-2004, 01:48 PM
Anyone besides me realize that this shit doesnt work at all in solo? Paly first against any DECENT UD player is HOPELESS. While your nuking his hero, wich is going to be healed. hes nukeing your entire ARMY! Also, try defending a warden harass, or a DK harass w/ ghouls, or a Blade master or FS harass with out an arcane tower. Try FEing with the slowass, useless paladin. He cant stand up to the UD without brillance, not to mention you cant spam innerfire and dispell without brillance.

I used to try this shit, its hard as hell to pull off and in most cases not worth it. Why would you get rifles early game, when you could push hard with foots and tech to caster/gryph/knight.

There really isent that much of a need for rifles early game like that, if you can use foots properly, and get down a good creep pattern with the AM, you wont need rifles as fast, and its easy to incorperate them into your army later on. Like in a good rush against UD, or trying to defend vs wind riders.

Im really not that good of a player, so you dont need to listen to me, but from my experience, and watching replays of top players, I dont see how this fast rifle strat is viable. Especialy not the paly first in solo, jesus christ.

Kyndig
11-18-2004, 02:48 PM
I think folks are missing the point of going fast rifles in Solo. It can work pretty well especially since it saves you the cost of training footmen. Not training 4-6 footies saves you 540-810 gold towards getting rifle/casters up and running, especially since footies usually die off in the long run. This is essentially the same concept as the UD CL/DK-fiend strategy.

The point of this strategy is to fast creep to lvl 3-4 with AM preferably, and avoid any skirmishes until you get sorcs, priests and breakers. You’d be surprised how easy it is to creep orange and red camps with 5 rifles and water elementals. Once you hit t2, go for dual sanctums and an MK and follow-up with a towered up expo, which is almost guaranteed due to the strength of your army at that point.

I don’t really like the Pal with this fast rifle strat. Reason is rifle/caster depends a lot on slow and healing, which will suck majorly without an AM. If I intended to go Pal vs. UD, I would prefer footies-to-dual aviaries instead of a weakened rifle-caster strat.

There are obviously downsides to this strategy:

1) No meat-shield until tier 2 –Effective micro is needed to save rifles from dying early, especially since you have no meat-shield. Try to avoid fighting early as much as possible and focus on creeping for a high level AM. Use a TP if necessary to save loss of 2 or more rifles.

2) Early harassment: This is worst versus Orcs, against whom this strat is almost a guaranteed loss since you can’t save rifles from dying to FS/grunt/wolf harass. It’s a lot easier to handle NE and UD harassment, since they come later, allowing you to get a tower up. With good use of militia you can ward off their harass attempts fairly easily.

3) Later Tier 2 tech: You can’t tech to Tier 2 as fast as your opponent, which means will be later in getting your second hero, and may expose you to some painful Tier 2 AOE combos.

The obvious up-side to this strat is that you swing into mass-rifle casters a lot faster and along with healing scrolls and good micro, you can defeat your opponent before they get too deep into t3.


My two cents

Nightfish
11-18-2004, 02:57 PM
Well said. Personally I've found that with your build oder I can get a tower up and have 2-3 rifles before the other guy comes by to harrass me on pretty much every map except for the real tiny ones. Vs orc I'll get the arcane tower since their harrassment seems to be weak vs that. Generally I'll just milita about 5 peasants and send them after the other hero. Between that and focus from my rifles & hero he's forced to TP pretty soon. Especially if you can surround him. ^_^

Chavez
11-18-2004, 03:04 PM
The point of this strategy is to fast creep to lvl 3-4 with AM preferably, and avoid any skirmishes until you get sorcs, priests and breakers. You’d be surprised how easy it is to creep orange and red camps with 5 rifles and water elementals. Once you hit t2, go for dual sanctums and an MK and follow-up with a towered up expo, which is almost guaranteed due to the strength of your army at that point.

I see. Thats not my gameplay style. I tend to try to get level 2 faster then the other player and rush, or set up a quick expo and rush. While I tech fast to teir 3.

piledriver
11-20-2004, 10:27 PM
I use a fast rifle build with neutral hero esp. vs Undead. The build order is quite simple actually Smith,barracks ,farm ,Altar,farm etc. I generally get dark ranger since it allows me to powercreep(skellies) and silence the undead heroes to prevent nuking.(And since dr is undead u cant nuke her either) With proper rifle micro, this strat can be quite hard to handle. Creep till level 3 and rush hard at tier 2 with MK/firelord.(i prefer firelord though for the summon which can be quite hard for UD to handle since dispel tier 3).

This strat is not useful if you are someone who focuses on casters mainly. I generally get some priests and immediately research adept training to increase mana capacity/regen rate.

Robo
11-20-2004, 11:04 PM
fast rifleman are really imo good on plunder isle with a blood mage first getting banish because you can creep the red ogres with 4 rifles

Chavez
11-21-2004, 01:16 AM
fast rifleman are really imo good on plunder isle with a blood mage first getting banish because you can creep the red ogres with 4 rifles

You mean the ones that gaurd the shops? If your talkin about them then thats insane. They have good drops.

Marvin
11-22-2004, 12:51 AM
My version of the build buried somewhere in this thread incorporates a mill and a guard tower without any slow-down in getting the rifles out. The rifle build is not advisable against Orcs due to grunt + FS harass. It has merit versus NE since their only early melee units are unarmored hunts. Versus undead it can work as long as you don't fight out in the open since ghouls + RoN skellies > rifles w/o choke points.

The danger of using this strat is the delay in reaching t2 for sorc/priest and aoe spells.

on the 8th page

Send 5 starting peasants to gold – queue 2 peasants at hall
Pull first miner to return off gold and send to lumber.
First trained peasant to lumber
Second trained peasant to gold (for 5 on gold from this point on)
Third trained peasant to build blacksmith, shift queue to lumber
Get 140 lumber and send the two lumber peasants to build altar and first farm, shift queue both to lumber
Fourth trained peasant to build Barracks, shift queue to lumber
Fifth trained peasant to build second farm, shift queue to lumber
Sixth trained peasant to lumber
Seventh trained peasant to build lumber mill
Eighth trained peasant to lumber (This is the last peasant to train)
Train Hero
Train First Rifle
Build third farm
Build tower
Train Second Rifle
Upgrade to G.Tower
Hero pops out
Train Third Rifle

I like this one the best :)

max97230
11-24-2004, 12:45 AM
yep i did it it's easy. just build your buildings as a *place holder/money holder* then build them all at once basically

edit: start your buildings then finish them all at once*

Saikano
11-25-2004, 11:07 AM
Red ogres @ 4 rifles, that's sexy.

Gol]i[ath
11-25-2004, 09:45 PM
kind of wierd strat but illl try

Nightfish
11-26-2004, 04:03 AM
It's no weirder than the nightelves' huntress BO... ;)

Saikano
11-28-2004, 08:57 PM
How are either wierd ? Hunts are completely mainstream these days and Teching straight to rifles isn't seen much these days but still isn't labled 'wierd' In my opinion atleast

Nightfish
11-29-2004, 01:54 AM
Hunts are completely mainstream these days

I realise that and that is exactly why I brought up hunts as an example to make my point that going straight for rifles isn't weird. Seems you sorta missed that. :P

Saikano
11-30-2004, 03:34 PM
I referring to Goliath as well, seems you sorta missed who I was talking to :P I didn't clarify though, it's cool mang :o)

Immortalsoulz
12-10-2004, 03:25 PM
Well, i just joined up to this forum recently, and I ( immortalsoulz : lordaeron ) will test this b/o vrs my own that I got from my friend ( nX.Orsky : lordaeron ) then get back to ya

Arcarsenal
12-18-2004, 11:13 PM
fast rifleman are really imo good on plunder isle with a blood mage first getting banish because you can creep the red ogres with 4 rifles

I just tried this... NICE.

Instant level + gosu item.. i love it.

DTF-McBain
12-31-2004, 09:00 AM
you might as well not start the altar alltogether, get fast BS / rax up and start altar at 11:45 for a neutral hero, that's faster =P

BlaCk-M@MBa
01-24-2005, 05:22 PM
tried this strat again ne and it own

i-use-human
01-27-2005, 12:38 AM
I been using this for a while. This is the first i heard of it form others(cool?).just dont get own by orcs and this work very well with team.

Smokey_
02-07-2005, 10:39 PM
is there a replay of this being done?

IC.Shadow
02-07-2005, 11:26 PM
is there a replay of this being done?
Most of the ones in this thread are pre-1.17 replays, but there's three on page 12 that you can check out.

If you have an opportunity to view the older replays, using Warcraft Zei or a similar program (see Miscellaneous Content Forum), I would strongly recommend it. This is an older strategy, but still works just fine.

Crysknife
02-17-2005, 10:35 PM
Hmm...what strat would this BO work with? It seems you need at least a few footies for meat early game.

Nightfish
02-18-2005, 03:04 AM
It's just like a straight fiend build order for undead. Do they need ghouls for meat? Also, you might want to try reading the thread a little since this has to be the most frequently asked question ever. ;)

elun.Ccin
02-19-2005, 03:22 AM
By request, I present a Sticky thread of the fastest build order for straight Riflemen (bypassing Footmen altogether).


This is VVoLF's straight Rifle build. This build gets you Rifles faster than any other I've seen, but it's comlex, so take note.

- Send all peasants to gold, and queue two.
- Rally them to lumber, NOT gold. (You will only have 4 peasants on gold for quite awhile, so make sure you remember to take the guy who finishes the Blacksmith later, and put him on gold when he's done)
- Take a peasant from gold and START an Altar (but do NOT finish it, just start it, then immediately walk away).
- Use same peasant to START a Farm (again, just barely start it, then walk him away from it).
- Send that peasant to gather lumber, and keep making more peasants, all queued to lumber (until you get 10 food in peasants, then stop making them).
- Once you reach 100 lumber, take one lumber-gathering peasant and BUILD (not just start, but fully build) a Blacksmith. When this peasant is finished building the Blacksmith, send him to get gold, so you have 5 on gold.
- When you get to 60 lumber, take another peasant from lumber and BUILD (fully build, not start) a Barracks.
- When you get 20 lumber, take 3 peasants off lumber. One finishes the Altar you began before, one finishes the Farm you began before, and one BUILDS (not starts, but fully builds) a second Farm.
- When you get to 50 lumber, your Barracks should just be completing, so train a Rifleman, and build another Farm.
- You should then get another 30 lumber and train a second Rifleman about the time when your Altar completes.
- Train AM (or Paladin if vs UD) - you should be at 21 food (10 workers, 2 Rifles, one hero being trained).
- Train additional Rifleman as resources permit, and make 2-3 additional peasants along the way. After awhile, you should be at about 44 food.


Think that's about it. Build Lumber Mill and Arcane Vault as needed, whenever you like, and tech to tier two when you're around 30-35 food.
this is not Wolf'S rifle build...
this is !!!augury's!!! rifle build

Elemental.
02-19-2005, 03:59 AM
It's just like a straight fiend build order for undead. Do they need ghouls for meat? Also, you might want to try reading the thread a little since this has to be the most frequently asked question ever. ;)

They have the DK to coil. The DK has an aura which increases movement speed, allowing fiends to run away, and then be coiled. As for human, the unit combo that is analogus to that is Pally/Rifle, and the Pally cannot holy light other units(except vs UD), he's slow, and does not have an aura that can increase movement speed of the riflemen and therefore allowing more to live. You cannot compare Rifles w/ no footmen meat to a DK/Fiend combo because the fact is that it is just completely different. Riflemen also have less damage, and have a shorter range at level 1. The fact is - versus a decent player you will need footmen early game and rifles more as if they were a tier2 unit so they can get the bonus of the Long Rifles upgrade.

IC.Shadow
02-19-2005, 11:27 AM
this is not Wolf'S rifle build...
this is !!!augury's!!! rifle build
Note the thread was made on the 19th of May last year. Stop spamming. Thanks.
It's just like a straight fiend build order for undead. Do they need ghouls for meat? Also, you might want to try reading the thread a little since this has to be the most frequently asked question ever. ;)
Thank you.

And yes, that has been addressed dozens of times throughout the thread.

Crysknife
02-19-2005, 08:15 PM
Kyndig, that BO is awesome.

Just wondering, how long did it take you to perfect that?

Myping
02-26-2005, 01:03 PM
this strat showed in battle.net by one of the blizz north programmers augury
nice though

RodneyTomatoes
03-04-2005, 11:15 PM
i am not trying to bash this build but i much prefer the alter,farm and quick lumber mill build a lot better. i think the tech is almost near as fast as any other race and you can still pump numerous rifles as well as put a tower up and really defend your base well.

The build goes alter first four to gold, que two, first one out builds a farm, steal one from gold to build a lumber mill at the same time as the farm, the one that finishes the farm builds a smith, the one building the alter builds a second farm, then basically put a rax up right afterwards by the time that finishes or well b4 you can put a tower up and you should have 18-20 food in hero and peasants. I much prefer that build as it can allow for an earlier tech and a faster hero.

Nightfish
03-14-2005, 12:07 PM
If you're willing to sacrifice some early game gold you can get rifles and your hero out a bit faster. (also you can tech earlier) I just tried this and it works alright. Basically I sent 3 peasants to lumber, 2 to gold and sent all new peasants to gold. To build all the necessary structures and train the first rifleman you need 240 wood (60 rax, 60 smith, 50 altar, 40 farms, 30 rifle) so you start building accordingly.

- The lumberjack that brings you to 220 builds the blacksmith
- 230 builds barracks
- 240 builds altar
- Take peons from gold to build 2 farms

If you're going for a neutral hero the guy that makes the first farm runs to the tavern and then proceeds to scout the opponent. If you need an earlier (human) hero move the altar up to the first building you start. Obviously you fill your gold mine again after taking those 2 guys off gold. I usually go for a total of 13 food in peasants.

Doing things this way speeds things up by about half an hour of warcraft time or so. Teching is usually possible with 4 rifles. You can constantly pump riflemen but you gotta keep a good eye on your resources because you're not working with a lot of spare cash in this case. Don't queue up more than you need and don't start 3 buildings just before your last rifleman is done training. ^_-

Kyndig
03-15-2005, 05:58 PM
Mind running a demo of this build Nightfish? I'd like to see it, but am too lazy to script it out, especially if I get it all wrong. I'd like to compare it to an alternative build I have for fast rifles and a tavern hero at exactly 14:45 wc3time (usually drow ranger), with an early arcane to deal with harass, and no lumbermill.

Nightfish
03-16-2005, 03:24 AM
Here's my last try on this: 3rd Rifle pops out at exactly 18:00 and I'm teching at 18:30. This isn't completely finetuned yet as you can see by a peasant standing idle for about 4 seconds. >_<

I'm not getting an arcane tower in this BO but you could probably fit one in there somewhere. I usually don't get arcane towers anymore because I just wall my base off if a DH with immolation or a blademaster comes by. Well, I start constructing that farm before he actually arrives but I don't finish it until he attacks it.

I couldn't upload the file to the member replays because I didn't have an opponent this game. (didn't need one to demonstrate the BO...) I hope it's okay to attach it this time?

paek
03-18-2005, 11:04 PM
WCB_RAINBOW had a build like this back in RoC

Kyndig
03-19-2005, 06:06 PM
Nice build Nightfish. Very straightforward, and I like the fast tech too. Still not sure if its safe to go without an arcane or guard tower though. Usually results in a lot of needless hassle against more aggressive opponents.

Thanks again for posting the replay, I'll try it out on ladder.

Nightfish
03-19-2005, 06:21 PM
Well, it depends. Nothing is foolproof. ;) I only use this vs nightelf, and I just close my base off with a farm if he wants to get inside with his immolation DH. If he attacks my "gate farm" I just finish it and repair it. He can stand there and whack it as long as he wants to. (of course I need to start building that farm before he actually arrives...)

Also, if you want an early arcane tower I think you can just squeeze it in somehow. But I wanted an option that allows for the fastest tech possible while still giving me the normal amount of rifles to work with. I don't usually get arcane towers anymore unless it's vs wolves so I'm not missing it. What I usually do get is a 2-3 guard towers while I'm teching. Helps keep those pesky hunts in their place.

Davester
03-21-2005, 08:23 PM
ive been testing rifle build wit hu. Even though im a competitve Hu solo. If you guys want me to post some good solo games wit rifle build ill be happy to do so.. keep in mind my opponents will be good but not high lvl. i plan on usinga smurph accoutn but once i get 7-0 they should get good. just tell me if you want it cuz i dont wanna save if not ;/ bye

Restepca
03-22-2005, 09:02 AM
Well im having a small problem with the pesants.
I think there is a mistake with the number of the pesants. please check again your instructions and notice that after all you are left with 4 pesants in gold mine after you said it is the 5th you already send there...
Since stage 3 you take out one gold pesants out to start the altar + farm then you send him to chop wood which means you have 3 gold minners in the gold mine at the moment, then in stage 6 you say that the 5th minner is on the gold mine but it is only the 4th because you take one out in stage 3.
Please check it out.

BTW
Nice tactic but footmen are very needed in solo to cover the hero and rifles at early stages but i think it will work fine and will be helpfull in team games where there always someone to cover your back while you tech(besides lame tower).

Bluedragoon
03-22-2005, 07:14 PM
Fast rifles is a great strat, especially on Gnoll Wood. Beware, though. On meadows, no footies inhibits militia creeping and on TRock you could get caught pretty bad. You need to be pretty confident your opponent wont rush yuor base right after his hero pops out.

Nightfish
03-24-2005, 05:51 AM
I seriously wonder how long this thread would be minus all those posts claiming you need footmen...?

Flying_Machine
03-26-2005, 08:38 AM
im fine with the "need footies" argument. Its a legitimate question, especially with casters playing a larger role these days vs orc.

Raith
04-02-2005, 02:41 PM
the other replays are 1.15-1.17 can someone make a replay v a comp or something that is wolf's fast rifle BO? i checked the thread but cant find reps. thx.

IC.Shadow
04-02-2005, 04:33 PM
the other replays are 1.15-1.17 can someone make a replay v a comp or something that is wolf's fast rifle BO? i checked the thread but cant find reps. thx.
Going to merge this with the Sticky thread.

I'll make one up (just the start of the game to show the build order) in about 20 minutes, and post it. Fair warning: Back when I made this thread, I was still playing ladder fairly often. I don't anymore. If I'm a bit slow, sorry. But I can still easily give you the general idea of the build, and you can improve the speed as necessary. I think I should be able to do alright though. Give me about half an hour.

Raith
04-02-2005, 04:49 PM
thanks Shadow. :) its a hard BO, thats for sure, thanks again.

IC.Shadow
04-02-2005, 05:29 PM
OK, so here's 1.18. This took two tries, as I trained one too many Peasants the first game. >_<

Everything in this replay is how it should be done, with one small exception. I forgot to send a Peasant to complete the Altar when it should have been done. The delay is perhaps 10 seconds. So, the only real recourse was my hero finished about 10 seconds later than you want to aim for. But this is actually about the exact same as what I did months ago in 1.15, so I guess I did alright. :)


(Note: For reasons why this is an attachment, and not properly uploaded in the content forums, see previous pages of this thread re: firewall incompatibility, etc.)

Raith
04-02-2005, 05:55 PM
heh okay thanks, going to watch and perfect it. :P

kyle.br
04-02-2005, 06:45 PM
heh okay thanks, going to watch and perfect it. :P

and post your modified fast rifle bo after you do it!

Raith
04-02-2005, 07:22 PM
and post your modified fast rifle bo after you do it!
i will sir, and ill provide replays for it, as well.

kyle.br
04-02-2005, 09:20 PM
thx!

Flying_Machine
04-02-2005, 10:14 PM
i will sir, and ill provide replays for it, as well.

and dont make them vs a comp let alone an easy comp

kyle.br
04-02-2005, 10:28 PM
Shadow´s replay was just to show the BO in 1.18!

Raith
04-02-2005, 11:01 PM
and dont make them vs a comp let alone an easy comp
yeah it was a rep of it..... =\

anyway i saw the replay about 5 times, 3-4 rifles tech. hmph. need to practice on this because 1. it looks hard. and 2. rifles / hero comes out really quick, like a quick fiend build.

IC.Shadow
04-03-2005, 02:27 AM
and dont make them vs a comp let alone an easy comp
I clearly stated I was merely showing how to do the build. If Raithed wants to make a replay against an actual player, that is fine, but the way you talk, it's as if a replay showing the build order itself - which is exactly what this thread was designed for - isn't good enough.

So, sorry I guess?

Flying_Machine
04-03-2005, 05:15 AM
I clearly stated I was merely showing how to do the build. If Raithed wants to make a replay against an actual player, that is fine, but the way you talk, it's as if a replay showing the build order itself - which is exactly what this thread was designed for - isn't good enough.

So, sorry I guess?

No need to guess, you don't have to apologize about anything. You showed the build order perfectly.

The "let alone easy" came off bad, but i would really like to see a dh trying to cause mayhem during the build when a player has 1 rifle and an near done (but not completed) hero (not doubting the build, just interested in what would happen).

Personally the first post of this thread on the exact build is better than writing down each significant event in the build as you watch the replay. Nobody is doubting the accuracy of the build. If you read the "concerns" in the thread its basically what the enemy can do against this build and NOT whether or not you have enough wood or gold at "X" elapsed time to create "Y" unit or building.

Its an interesting strat that i dont see alot from human in this and the previous patch so if more than anything i was hoping to see the strat in action.

IC.Shadow
04-03-2005, 06:24 PM
Well, if a DH does come - especially on a map like Turtle Rock - yes, you will only have 2 Rifles (you should have 2 completed by the time his hero gets there, or at least the second Rifle should be finished within 5-8 seconds), but you will have 13 Peasants that you can turn into Militia. And your hero will be out shortly after, so that will pretty well end the harrassment. Hero, plus 3 Rifles, plus up to 13 Militia = gg DH.

Now, if you want to, you can incorporate an Arcane Tower into the build early on. I would say it would be best to start it just after you begin training your first Rifleman, so the Tower should finish before any harrassment arrives. But that is completely up to you.

TheBlackElf
04-04-2005, 10:01 AM
hmm... maybe it's ok, but why to do it? i mean someone really had a good point that in 2v2 this strat works, but why to use it in 1v1? well i don't see why two or even three footmen would be bad...

Nightfish
04-04-2005, 10:20 AM
For the same reason elves do a huntress build or undeads do a fiend build.

Jet518
04-05-2005, 05:20 PM
For the same reason elves do a huntress build or undeads do a fiend build.
elves who do a hunt build are EXTREMLY unprotected...when i scout and see that i rush them and can kill them with 2-3 footies to start and hero. UD though can hold because of ghouls. But the NE reason is why i dont like this strat in solo. I think you are too open to attack even with militia, you will still loose some and get behind. Just my preference though. I like the footmen meat wall. It lets your rifles survive longer.

Fuct
04-09-2005, 03:08 AM
I watched shadows game he messed it up pretty bad I mean 4 min mark is too slow I did it in just over 3 mins while shadows was just over 4 you might want to emulate mine.

IC.Shadow
04-09-2005, 04:08 AM
I watched shadows game he messed it up pretty bad I mean 4 min mark is too slow I did it in just over 3 mins while shadows was just over 4 you might want to emulate mine.
Fair warning: Back when I made this thread, I was still playing ladder fairly often. I don't anymore. If I'm a bit slow, sorry. But I can still easily give you the general idea of the build, and you can improve the speed as necessary.
As I said.

Also note I went creeping while teching to tier 2, which added at least 30 seconds, so....

Fuct
04-09-2005, 04:27 AM
just trying to help shadow, time is important. because with normal builds heros come out at 2 min mark if yours comes out at 4 min mark you wont be in very good shape but if it takes him 30 sec to run across the map (depending on witch one) your hero along with atleast 2 rifles will be out at 3 mins that helps alot, he should not be able to do much damage in 30 secs

IC.Shadow
04-09-2005, 04:33 AM
I'm sorry, I don't doubt that you're trying to help, and if you shaved 30-45 seconds off of the build time, then obviously that is very good. But when I've stated that I'm no pro player, haven't touched ladder in months, and am merely making an overview for what to do, comments like "messed up" aren't really necessary.

If I'd said "this is the perfect build, with great timing, enjoy!", that'd be different. But I didn't say that. :|

Anyways, nicely done with the timing.

H-kan
04-09-2005, 06:04 AM
but why do you only START the alter and the farm ?

( i am a noob )

steamroller989
04-09-2005, 07:45 AM
i dont know, but im guessing its so it only takes 1 peasant to build all the buildings so the rest can gather resources

Fuct
04-09-2005, 01:59 PM
but why do you only START the alter and the farm ?

( i am a noob )

because you need alot of wood fast, for all the buildings and you have to make sure you have enough wood to make your first rifle (they cost 30 wood)

skyro620
04-09-2005, 05:38 PM
but why do you only START the alter and the farm ?

( i am a noob )

It is just to help to manage your wood resources and as a place holder. Once you get used to the BO you don't have to start the building and finish it later if you can keep track of when/where to build the altar and farm.

kedar
04-10-2005, 02:25 PM
i've seen another riflebuild, which i have a replay of.. is it ok if i post another thread about it??

i think it's somewhat the same, but i dont really know.. it was a hu vs hu..

13lizzard
04-15-2005, 11:59 AM
complicated strat but over all i think it it will work. All though i have to agree there will be a slow tech. But its not crucial

kedar
04-15-2005, 09:40 PM
complicated strat but over all i think it it will work. All though i have to agree there will be a slow tech. But its not crucial

hopefully the rifle build shall make up for the tech..... it might be a pain early on, especially against orc's bm harrass.. prob put a tower up??

Worked
04-19-2005, 12:49 AM
I tried this strat in RT, it worked wonders.
I tried this strat in AT, i got harassed by a KOTG and FS, and i got OWNED.
Entangle on quick riflemen, makes this strat very difficult. Entangle takes out this much needed quick riflemen, and leaves you playing like you came into the game 5 minutes after it started. - Slowed down hero, slow tech, and limited lumber income.

Wolven
04-23-2005, 10:13 PM
I used Shadow's build and was 3 seconds faster than you Fuct. -.-

Fuct
04-25-2005, 07:33 PM
I used Shadow's build and was 3 seconds faster than you Fuct. -.-

good for you, speed is key but 3 sec doesnt make that much diff, that replay was my first try at it so im sure I could be a bit faster also.

Flying_Machine
05-05-2005, 10:58 AM
I used Shadow's build and was 3 seconds faster than you Fuct. -.-

I used Fuct's build and was 5 seconds faster than you Wolv. Im confused at which one is more efficient now.

Coolman84
05-16-2005, 03:03 AM
so complicated indeed... but ill practice it:)

b-s
05-25-2005, 11:43 PM
nice thread. this takes alot of practice.. i wish i had a perfectly timed replay to go off of :/

IC.Shadow
05-26-2005, 02:52 AM
nice thread. this takes alot of practice.. i wish i had a perfectly timed replay to go off of :/
Check Page 17.

idleson
05-26-2005, 08:15 AM
ive tried this a billion times.. dunno if its my fault or not.. but it juz doesnt work 4 me... wen i try this strat i only have 3 peasants at 1st.. can anyone help me? any replay or somethin?? and i think dat i need more gold than wood..

CapLock
05-26-2005, 08:55 AM
I tried this strat in RT, it worked wonders.
I tried this strat in AT, i got harassed by a KOTG and FS, and i got OWNED.
Entangle on quick riflemen, makes this strat very difficult. Entangle takes out this much needed quick riflemen, and leaves you playing like you came into the game 5 minutes after it started. - Slowed down hero, slow tech, and limited lumber income.

I made up a build for this ages ago for at, by the time their heros get to your base your hero would just pop out, you have tower already done and rifle man about to pop out also with the hero. 85% of the time hero/1 rifle will pop out before they get there though with a nice tower to help out.

IC.Shadow
05-26-2005, 09:36 PM
ive tried this a billion times.. dunno if its my fault or not.. but it juz doesnt work 4 me... wen i try this strat i only have 3 peasants at 1st.. can anyone help me? any replay or somethin?? and i think dat i need more gold than wood..
Again, check Page 17 for replays. I just said that in the post above yours.

No, you should not only have 3 Peasants at the start. You have four on gold, one starts two buildings, leaves them unfinished, then goes to lumber. And no, you need maximum lumber or the build fails completely. Your problem is not the build but the fact that you're not doing anything remotely like what the build is...

Please look at the previous page of this thread. -_-

D'SoiL
06-03-2005, 12:11 PM
how can u start with paladin i never seen any replays.
can u tell me some if u can

prizem
06-04-2005, 09:46 PM
um in 3s or 4s fast rifles are needed?

Pereza
06-05-2005, 06:07 PM
I find Alincors Build (page 3) just as efficient as any other build in this thread. You have an early hero and by the time your second rifleman comes out you are at 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

cloakghost
06-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Seems needlessly complicated but like I say: don't knock it till you try it.

MainMan
06-14-2005, 06:06 PM
I'll sum up my reply in point form.

1) It can be vulnerable, but only in the first few minutes of the game. After that, it's really, really good.

2) I only know of one replay of him in 1.15 and I have yet to watch it, so I'm not sure what strat he uses in it, nor what build order, though I would assume it does have the straight rifle build. If so, I'll post it within a day or two, after I watch it, etc.

3) I don't know if he "invented" it, but he is damn good at it, and he has perfected it very well.

4) He doesn't post many replays, nor reply to threads like this, because there are always a handful of people who latch onto every replay he posts, and flame him for absolutely nothing. He gets tired of the bullshit after awhile, and doesn't bother uploading anything (I can't blame him, as it's annoying getting flamed when all you want to do is provide some entertainment for people by posting a few replays). However, he does post lots of replays at www.war3live.com and you're welcome to check some there if it helps you. :)


trust me man,a friend of mine executed this strat against me pitch perfectly,1-1,human-human.he followed this up with sorceresses and spell breakers and i still whooped his ass by playing normally.this is,however,extremely useful in 2-2s and above.

YouKi
06-23-2005, 02:00 AM
this should work well ;)

LawCraft
06-26-2005, 03:38 PM
this should work well ;)

Yes, it is a good strategy; if executed properly.

Vamp25
06-30-2005, 05:06 PM
a replay would make this a little easier...

IC.Shadow
06-30-2005, 10:32 PM
a replay would make this a little easier...
There are about 30 of them, spanning 4 patches including 1.18, throughout this thread. The 1.18 replays are two pages back, I believe. It would be nice if you took a moment to look first before posting. :|

VVoLF
07-01-2005, 05:20 AM
Hehe. Funny how people are like, "I once beat a guy who used riflemen, this strat/build sucks!!!"

Hacker
07-01-2005, 06:41 AM
hmm it can be good , if u go for a tavern hero !
preferablly darkranger , fl or bm etc!

sephiroth-clone
07-18-2005, 09:38 PM
awsome strat and easy to memorise

Basic.Icecream
07-19-2005, 06:44 PM
Only works against UD and NE, terrible vs Orc. Orc will overrun you with Grunt/Shamans too fast for you to react :\

shivva
07-21-2005, 09:00 AM
Against Orc : Maybe just do normal Human Bo with mass caster Am\Beastmaster\Firelord fast tier 3 tech and Master Sorceress. You can rush the enemy with mass caster and transform the enemy grunts and raiders with your sorcs. Sometimes it's possible do send a few summons to the enemy base and kill some Peons , burrows or wounded units ( or Heros)

Pro_Bush_Joe
07-24-2005, 10:25 AM
the fast rifle helped me a ton, great stuff so dont diss it guys, use it first seriously

[GhOsT]
07-25-2005, 01:27 PM
It helps alot when playing against mass hunts and in team games. I on't really use it against human or orc ( haven't tried it out against undead yet).

iTm.Breves
08-20-2005, 12:56 PM
This is really good strat. I played it myself . It works very fine vs orc. For that get an beast and when u got 4 rifle tech. Then if tech is rdy get fl and do push. Its about 95% win

Rifer
08-25-2005, 10:35 PM
in 3:12 i got 2 rifle and 1 hero with the old strat ( 1.altar 2. blacksmith 3. farm 4.farm 5 barrack with (3 peasant on) ) i prefere this one because i got my hero fast and i can counter any rush ^^
in 3:42 i got 3 rifle and 1 hero but the hero come at 3:42

Kid_Saiyan
08-26-2005, 01:56 PM
I'm going to try that. It seems comfusing going to be hard to remember the build order

Sriver
08-28-2005, 08:24 AM
imo,
This strat is pure gold for RT,
kinda risky for AT,
and very good for certain situations in solo.

Mr.JoKeY
08-30-2005, 04:06 AM
I can only see using this solo wise versus NE am i correct?

IC.Shadow
08-30-2005, 09:17 PM
I can only see using this solo wise versus NE am i correct?
Er, no. That's actually probably the worst possible scenario to use this, especially on close-spawning maps facing a DH. It can be used in solo games, but is best used against Orc or Undead, and only against Night Elf on larger maps, or maps where your opponent will not spawn very close to you. DH harrassment is probably the most difficult to fight off using this build. FS with Wolves is easier, though still challenging.

Nightfish
08-31-2005, 01:23 AM
If you want to use it against elves on those smaller maps it can be very helpful to completely close off your base with an extra farm until your hero and 2-3 rifles are out. I get the farm about 95% done before the DH shows up and only finish it if he attacks it. If the DH feels like chopping through that thing it's gonna take him too long. If I want to get out and had to finish the farm I just call militia for that job.

(also, I don't really see why it's any worse against a DH than it would be againt an orcish blademaster...)

Human Player
08-31-2005, 04:13 PM
good idea ill try it

iNdEEd
08-31-2005, 11:13 PM
Fastest Rifle Build yet

Oh and in 2:37 I also had all 7 wood peasents (8 if you want), my 3rd farm building, and in a good position to tech + keep producing.

If anyone could help me by telling me how to post the replay that would be great :)

Actully.. this might be it lol hold on

KK works.

IC.Shadow
08-31-2005, 11:19 PM
If anyone could help me by telling me how to post the replay that would be great :)
http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/announcement.php?f=15&announcementid=11

Kind of ironic that the thread that tells you how to post them is essentially directly above this thread.

And for the record, no, you didn't post it correctly. The thread I've linked for you explains.

Human-
09-05-2005, 06:29 AM
i like it i cant find a major fault with it, every strategy has fault but this strategy get you off to a strong start altohugh you have a slight economical disadvantage you will have a greater army in my opinion this could be one of the best 2v2 build orders

slicky342
09-12-2005, 01:42 AM
Not to sound arrogant but VVolf's rifle build is inferior to mine :S. I have a much easier to remember and far more effective rifle build.

[p]Essentially I have an arcane tower, 8 peasants on lumber+5 on gold, my first rifle out, and my hero by the 2:30 mark. If executed with proper macro you can be teched by 4:00-4:15 mins in and have 4 rifles out and another on the way.

[p]The game I have attached is an example of the rifle build i use in AT and used to use in RT. I know some of you guys wanted an example of it being used in a real game and the one attached is an AT from a few months ago. I think you guys will agree my rifle build is far easier to remember and much better for getting your hero out & creeping or harassing.

[p]Hopefully the attached file works ^^.

StLaNg
09-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Not to sound arrogant but VVolf's rifle build is inferior to mine :S. I have a much easier to remember and far more effective rifle build.

[p]Essentially I have an arcane tower, 8 peasants on lumber+5 on gold, my first rifle out, and my hero by the 2:30 mark. If executed with proper macro you can be teched by 4:00-4:15 mins in and have 4 rifles out and another on the way.

[p]The game I have attached is an example of the rifle build i use in AT and used to use in RT. I know some of you guys wanted an example of it being used in a real game and the one attached is an AT from a few months ago. I think you guys will agree my rifle build is far easier to remember and much better for getting your hero out & creeping or harassing.

[p]Hopefully the attached file works ^^.

much easier, and i apreciate it :p hero comes out before i get harassed too ^^

mitt
09-17-2005, 08:26 PM
What is the use of starting a building partially then going back to working? Wouldn't it just be easier to build the shit right there and then?

IC.Shadow
09-18-2005, 03:00 AM
What is the use of starting a building partially then going back to working? Wouldn't it just be easier to build the shit right there and then?
That's been explained about 20 times already. It is so you have enough lumber. If you continue building the building, you won't have enough lumber for the others.

slicky342
09-19-2005, 01:12 PM
much easier, and i apreciate it :p hero comes out before i get harassed too ^^

Glad I could be of help to someone :).

WtfpwnYou2
09-21-2005, 05:59 PM
Replay for this?

StLaNg
09-21-2005, 07:35 PM
if posting replays worked for me on the site, i would post one. but i dont wana piss of Shadow and put it directly onto the thread :p (for 1.19b)

IC.Shadow
09-21-2005, 09:29 PM
if posting replays worked for me on the site, i would post one. but i dont wana piss of Shadow and put it directly onto the thread :p (for 1.19b)
No, you can if you have legitimately tried the proper way. As long as you did, then it's alright, because at least you read the guidelines and made the effort, which is more than can be said for most.

BsK_Champion
09-26-2005, 01:33 AM
we got an updated for 1.19? anyone? that would be good i have been trying it myself but i dont have it right maby i should write down the build and try it in AT

IC.Shadow
09-26-2005, 03:31 AM
we got an updated for 1.19? anyone? that would be good i have been trying it myself but i dont have it right maby i should write down the build and try it in AT
Yeah, you could just print out the first post of the thread and keep it beside you as you play. Just make a few games against the Computer so you can test the build and improve on it (i.e. get faster). Once you think you've got it, then use it against actual players.

As stated many times previously in this thread, the main key is surviving any early harrassment, but the only hero that provides much of a challenge is the Demon Hunter on close-spawn maps. Everything else is fairly easy to fight off if you build a good base and do the build order quickly enough.

But yeah, just practice it for a bit, and hopefully StLaNg or someone else can give you some replays.

slicky342
09-26-2005, 12:09 PM
I'll post an updated replay of my build order once I play a game using it in 1.19. I'll probably use it vs a new UD in solo :D which is about the only place it works other than 2's.

StLaNg
09-26-2005, 03:54 PM
okies guys, heres my rifle build i hope it is up to your standards :) This is exactly \/\/olf's fast rifle!

slicky342
09-29-2005, 02:01 PM
Alright here is a replay vs an easy computer of me using my fast rifle build in version 1.20.

StLaNg
09-29-2005, 08:32 PM
go figure, a day after i post my replay, yet ANOTHER patch comes out :/ well i tried

Forgotten-Blood
10-04-2005, 11:09 AM
What are you going to do against grunts? I hope you have sorc to slow/poly because even if you do somehow get all those rifles...chances are (espiaclly orcs) they have melee. And we all know what happens with melee and aa...But this might work in a team game...other wise I would not recomend it for solo.

Nightfish
10-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Just fyi, all things being equal, melee will more often than not lose to range... Reason being that range can focus fire and that if you keep dancing the range around the melee guys never really get a kill. Just watch any philbot replay to see the basic principle.

Forgotten-Blood
10-05-2005, 01:36 PM
Hey man do you play Warcraft 3- Frozen Throne? If you do then you must know that most people using only rifle get easly raped in team/solo games. In team games people will get splash damage and kill your mass.In solo, they will just get melee units and gg your ass.I have faced humans solo many times and only once did he mass pure rifles.I killed him with my grunts. All the other times they built combo armys, so that each section of the units suports the other. This is not starcraft, do not mass only one set units as it will be raped by combos every single time. My suggestion to you people who want to mass only rifles is to go and play single player or custom games so you can practices vrs. multi comps at one time. If you can't do that then you need to get on b-net and play lots of quick games vrs me so I can get ranked up becasue you suck.

-This Post is directed toward Nightfish-

slicky342
10-06-2005, 04:29 PM
Yea I doubt your 50% Azeroth aka is going to do a whole lot so I doubt you'd be owning anyone good who does this rifle build. As I mentioned and a lot of others this build is best for team games and I personally used it a lot in team games myself. Also, who said we just mass rifles? The strat is for skipping foots and going straight rifles while teching to whatever else you need. So chances are you're not going to get many kills vs the rifles early if your opponet has any micro and sorcs>grunts. If you don't believe me that this build is good by all means you can play me.

Vermont_sc
10-07-2005, 01:28 PM
From the stuff you have been saying for that rifle build thing it seems kinda dumn. i have done a few games with forgotten and hes right. orcs wil lsmash through eny human who does not get their hero fast. i rush with 2 grunts and 1 hero and i usaly destroy a human base even when they have a hero. with a hero you will die in less then 8 min.

Tainted Sun
10-07-2005, 01:36 PM
If you dont want to make rifles...don't complain about a rifle build...just dont do it. No where does it say "This strat is IMBA and everyone should use it." it's just a fast rifle build if anyone wanted to know...

SoarinPenguin
10-13-2005, 10:33 PM
Nice One.... Mad Complicated But Sweet. Gunna Try It Out.. How U Figure This Out? Like Did Ya Go On Custom And Try Out Or Sumthing?

Basic.Icecream
10-13-2005, 10:54 PM
Just fyi, all things being equal, melee will more often than not lose to range... Reason being that range can focus fire and that if you keep dancing the range around the melee guys never really get a kill. Just watch any philbot replay to see the basic principle.


Philbot has Coil to keep Fiends alive before Statue/Lich come to help save the day, untill then FS/Grunt has a huge advantage over DK/Fiend. Only if you have CL do Fiends beat Grunts at tier 1.

Sriver
10-14-2005, 10:41 AM
From the stuff you have been saying for that rifle build thing it seems kinda dumn. i have done a few games with forgotten and hes right. orcs wil lsmash through eny human who does not get their hero fast. i rush with 2 grunts and 1 hero and i usaly destroy a human base even when they have a hero. with a hero you will die in less then 8 min.
So not true, rifleman build totally kicks the living crap outta orc (if you have a decent base placement, some micro and a tower) its almost impossible to do anything to humans base which has mass militia, tower and 2 rifles in it

IC.Shadow
10-14-2005, 08:29 PM
Nice One.... Mad Complicated But Sweet. Gunna Try It Out.. How U Figure This Out? Like Did Ya Go On Custom And Try Out Or Sumthing?
VVoLF made up quite a number of strategies in late RoC and early TFT. He was rarely ever recognised nor given credit for doing so. Part of the reason I always liked watching his replays so much (and eventually only watched his replays) was because they were almost always unique and very little like the typical everyday games.

As far as I know, he just made this up one day playing against mOOn-GLaDe and did it basically as a joke. Then when it started working in ladder, he kept doing it. His micro was some of the best I've seen from any player, which is one reason the build worked so well for him. But even if your micro isn't great, this still works in almost all scenarios. Only when facing DH harrassment on a close-spawning map, or Farseer harrassment (but only if you don't have an Arcane Tower) does it get a bit tricky. And even then, if you survive for a few minutes, you're fine.

StLaNg
10-15-2005, 06:14 PM
IC.Shadow's a freaking pimp ladies. Listen to him he knows what hes talking about.
Just to add to his point, also if you survive the first few minuites, without loosing rifles, you basically bypassed foots, and saved you 540~ ish gold, because rifles are much more of use late game, over the foots which are just lost to creeps, or fed to the enimy. Just keeping rifles alive... thats the hard part.

Restepca
10-18-2005, 08:30 AM
In my opinion footmen are extremly importent to any time at the game, and i dont understand how you guys dont relize it.
even if you want to count about rifleman its always good to have some footmen to be used as a human shield in battle+they dont cost much.

this strat is good for 2 vs 2.. but ofcurse, its my opinion. :\

Tainted Sun
10-18-2005, 12:13 PM
In my opinion footmen are extremly importent to any time at the game, and i dont understand how you guys dont relize it.
even if you want to count about rifleman its always good to have some footmen to be used as a human shield in battle+they dont cost much.

this strat is good for 2 vs 2.. but ofcurse, its my opinion. :\

Your opinon is valid...but I must say this again. This is not a thread saying, "what is better fast rifle or cookie-cutter?" it's a thread telling (not discussing) people to how to do fast rifle IF they want to...so if you dont like it, dont do it.

By the way, footies are not important any time in the game except for the beginning...there are a few laws of footies...I will address them...

1) When I move I will move slow.
2) When I get stunned, netted, slowed, or stuck, I die.
3) When I fight range and I put up my shield the fast heros will kill me.
4) When I survive to late game I die in a matter of seconds...
5) When I am purchased experience points are also purchased for your enemies heroes.
6) When I was born, I sucked at life. (notice my use of past tense on the word "sucked" seeing as when a footie realizes they have sucked, they are already dead)

Rifles FTW. :rofl: :lol:

slicky342
10-18-2005, 12:26 PM
1) When I move I will move slow.
2) When I get stunned, netted, slowed, or stuck, I die.
3) When I fight range and I put up my shield the fast heros will kill me.
4) When I survive to late game I die in a matter of seconds...
5) When I am purchased experience points are also purchased for your enemies heroes.
6) When I was born, I sucked at life. (notice my use of past tense on the word "sucked" seeing as when a footie realizes they have sucked, they are already dead)

Lol so very true, and #6 is the best.

this strat is good for 2 vs 2.. but ofcurse, its my opinion. :\

You would be correct sir and that is precisely where I use this strat the most. I think I said it a page back that I used this in all sorts of team games when I felt that footies would be pointless.

RAGE[NZ]
10-23-2005, 09:15 PM
WUdnt this build make u kinda vulnerable 2 a BM or DK harrass? Because u dont have a arcane tower up early and you hero will b out much later....

IC.Shadow
10-24-2005, 12:13 AM
']WUdnt this build make u kinda vulnerable 2 a BM or DK harrass? Because u dont have a arcane tower up early and you hero will b out much later....
I did say you can include a tower in the build wherever you like, and we've already exhausted the 'when does the hero finish' question to death. The difference is only about 30-40 seconds. That is by no means 'much longer'. It takes no more time than a Fiend build with Undead or a tavern build with Night Elf. It's the same thing - a slightly delayed hero train.

DarKn3s5
10-30-2005, 10:48 AM
It looks great I'll definatly have to try it on larger maps. Uh for reference the farm/alter is done by the time he comes to harrass *if he harrasses*? I'm guessing towers can be added shortly after the AM completes or something.

IC.Shadow
10-30-2005, 02:35 PM
It looks great I'll definatly have to try it on larger maps. Uh for reference the farm/alter is done by the time he comes to harrass *if he harrasses*? I'm guessing towers can be added shortly after the AM completes or something.
Yes, pretty much. Towers can be built whenever you like, but it is probably best to add them just after your hero is out, or while he is being trained. That sort of depends on the map size and opponent's race.

relientmnky
10-31-2005, 06:54 PM
thats freakin awesome :)

Hella.Gosu
10-31-2005, 09:07 PM
Does anyone have a 1.20 replay that they are willing to share? i would be hella grateful to see the bo in action :)

IC.Shadow
10-31-2005, 09:08 PM
Does anyone have a 1.20 replay that they are willing to share? i would be hella grateful to see the bo in action :)
Bottom of the previous page. :)

AbandonAllHope
11-20-2005, 04:33 PM
This is way to original to try!! Just kidding, I like this, but I beat every human who do it against me, so I'm happy. :D

vaj
12-08-2005, 09:49 AM
i have another rifle build thats easy to remember. The hero comes out ASAP.

que 3 peasents. continue to que as many you need. never stop building workers, untill you feel you have enough. the magic number usually is 5 on goldmine and 7-8 on wood.

start of with 5 peasants
send all to goldmine
take one and build Altar rally him back to goldmine when hes done.
the first one that returns from goldmine go harvest wood

now talking about the completed workers built form townhall
first worker go to goldmine (4 on goldmine now)
second worker build farm, rally him to wood when done.
third worker build blacksmith rally him to wood when done
forth build barracks, then rally him to wood
5+. rally the rest to wood.

when you now have 20 wood build a farm with a worker from wood.
when you have another 20 wood build your third farm with a woodworker.

as soon as your rax is done you should be able to build riflemen.

the only big differance is that my hero is completed 2.10 minutes into the game
and the first rifle is done 2.30~ minutes into the game

WeEatDeadPeople
12-22-2005, 08:05 PM
Whats with all the start and stop crap.. just build at 170 130 90... makes no sense why you would waste time half building a building

IC.Shadow
12-22-2005, 09:25 PM
Whats with all the start and stop crap.. just build at 170 130 90... makes no sense why you would waste time half building a building
If you actually read the thread before posting that, you would understand. It's because of lumber necessities, which we've already gone over at least ten times throughout the thread.

danith
01-15-2006, 11:05 PM
Does this build work against UD in a solo match?

I tried the build and it was pretty good. When would be the best time to send the militia scout? and do u get an arcane tower before teching or after? (assuming vs UD)

LoveDrug
01-15-2006, 11:17 PM
Does this build work against UD in a solo match?

I tried the build and it was pretty good. When would be the best time to send the militia scout? and do u get an arcane tower before teching or after? (assuming vs UD)

imo no, i believe it was decided that this build is truly a top tier strat in at/rt situations only
it could be very vulnerable to dk/ghoul harrass without building a couple towers which is fine, but it usually isn't included in the b/o
again imo, the peasant that finishes barracks should militia scout...if you want to go earlier, then send your altar peasant

bean12
01-24-2006, 11:09 AM
Whats with all the start and stop crap.. just build at 170 130 90... makes no sense why you would waste time half building a building

You are absolutely right. I don't understand why he just doesn't change the lumber values - you would still keep track of the lumber necessities that way - just do some math.

I like this BO the only problem is that if you get hero harass you are screwed because you hero is late coming out and all you have is like 1-2 rifles and no tower. Any recommendation in when to put up the arc tower? Lumber is in such short supply in this BO - could you start with 3 peasants on gold and 2 on lumber?

GrimAnGeL
01-28-2006, 04:28 PM
so what's the point of starting the altar / farm ?

IC.Shadow
01-28-2006, 09:34 PM
so what's the point of starting the altar / farm ?
If you actually read the thread before posting that, you would understand. It's because of lumber necessities, which we've already gone over at least ten times throughout the thread.
I realise the thread is long, but answering the same questions over and over again when all of the answers are on the first couple of pages is a little frustrating.

It's for lumber. You need the lumber faster.

mar7us
01-31-2006, 10:42 PM
I feel sorry for you Shadow :(

bean12
02-03-2006, 08:56 PM
I feel sorry for you too shadow - I have read this entire thread and there are a lot of questions that are repeated 3 times.

For those of you that are thinking about a straight rifle BO I would recommend Ragnoraks build (he posted earlier in this thread). I have timed out Ragnorak's build compared to VVolfs. (All the other BO's either suck or don't seem to understand the idea of getting rifles fast).

VVolf's original BO Ragnorak's BO
1st Rifle - 2:22 - 2:33
2nd Rifle - 2:47 - 2:58
Hero - 3:05 - 2:28
3rd Rifle - 3:13 - 3:30
4th Rifle - 3:42 - 3:59
Arc Tower - 3:52 - 3:43
Tier 2 - 7:12 - 6:08

Obviously the map (I used lost temple to time it) and other factors will change the times somewhat, but i think this is pretty close to as fast as you can expect to see your rifles and hero.

So VVolf's BO does get your first rifle out 11 sec faster then Ragnorak's build - but Ragnorak gets his hero out 30 secs faster then VVolf. I have been trying Ragnoraks BO and really like it because if a blademaster or dh comes to your base first thing expect to see him around the 2:30 marker. That means that under Wolfs bulid you would still have like 30 secs before your AM is done and have only 1-2 rifles to defend the harass. Under Ragnoraks build you have your hero by the time he gets there an still have 1 rifle. i would rather have an AM, WE and a rifle then 2 rifles to defend a harass.

Also I like Ragnoraks build better because you have more peasants so that means you can get to tier 2 much quicker. This allows me to still get casters fairly quickly. Feel free to time it yourselfs and post if you get something different.

IC.Shadow
02-03-2006, 10:40 PM
You raise good points. VVoLF's was never about fast-teching, it was usually for fast-expanding or early creeping with a slightly later tech. And your times confirm that. But if your style is more geared to tier two (or three), then you might want to try one of the other builds as you did.

idleson
02-12-2006, 12:12 AM
heyy.. i tried dis strat liek over a zillion times.. i reely follow dis strat and i reely get fast rifles. but wat if they harass me ? i try 2 build a tower. but i build it after i make my 2nd farm. soo they have time 2 run 2 mah base and harass it. any suggestions ?

IC.Shadow
02-12-2006, 03:06 AM
Unless you're building incredibly slowly, the enemy hero won't even be finished training by the time your second Farm finishes, so I'm really not sure what you mean. Both Farms should be completing at roughly the same time, and that should be at least a minute (with the exception of small maps where the enemy spawns right next to you) before he gets to your base. Your tower should be finished or just finishing by the time the enemy hero gets there if you build it right after your second Farm.

idleson
02-25-2006, 09:46 PM
i use this all the time... :D but u get late hero am i right ?

Irashoran
02-26-2006, 01:02 AM
I got around 5 seconds quicker than your times in \/\/olf's build on Twisted Meadows (the way it says).

On the lost temple, instead of wasting the time building the structures I sent the peasant straight to wood, after 1 return he made a blacksmith, then he went wood. The peasant making the barracks went to the gold mine. I ended up getting about 7-10 seconds quicker on all marks than your times, for a slightly altered \/\/olf build.

LawCraft
03-04-2006, 12:46 AM
Yeah, Irashoran's method is quicker than "VVolf's" method.

Blacktalon
03-04-2006, 03:22 AM
Fast rifle sucks anyway ........ (ever seen a pro use it?)

Kal-El
03-04-2006, 03:33 AM
Just cause a pro doesnt use a certain strategy doesnt mean it sucks.

Blacktalon
03-04-2006, 05:53 AM
Just cause a pro doesnt use a certain strategy doesnt mean it sucks. It shows its not the best.

Tainted Sun
03-04-2006, 06:18 AM
It shows its not the best.

Youre the problem with WC3.

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=959230&postcount=12

Read that post of mine...it's not totally directed at you but it gets to the point of what I want to say, the game is what you make it and if you practice something you can get it to work, but just trying it once, no it wont work...read the post, you'll get it.

Eh, maybe you won't, you lack an open mind.

Blacktalon
03-04-2006, 07:00 AM
Youre the problem with WC3.

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=959230&postcount=12

Read that post of mine...it's not totally directed at you but it gets to the point of what I want to say, the game is what you make it and if you practice something you can get it to work, but just trying it once, no it wont work...read the post, you'll get it.

Eh, maybe you won't, you lack an open mind.

Was that comment needed? But i do agree with you that if u make a new strat and practice it alot (kinda like akm and nc.dude did) that its pretty cool but i dont think this fast rifle build is better then the normal build thats all im saying no need to call me small minded or stuff.

0oLucko0
03-04-2006, 07:35 AM
Was that comment needed? But i do agree with you that if u make a new strat and practice it alot (kinda like akm and nc.dude did) that its pretty cool but i dont think this fast rifle build is better then the normal build thats all im saying no need to call me small minded or stuff.

Of course ppl know this strat isn't better then the normal build. I just don't see the point in u posting about fast rifle builds suks and so on. Was that comment needed?

bean12
03-04-2006, 03:36 PM
I got around 5 seconds quicker than your times in \/\/olf's build on Twisted Meadows (the way it says).

On the lost temple, instead of wasting the time building the structures I sent the peasant straight to wood, after 1 return he made a blacksmith, then he went wood. The peasant making the barracks went to the gold mine. I ended up getting about 7-10 seconds quicker on all marks than your times, for a slightly altered \/\/olf build.


I think that is a good point. Obviously when you practice it enough you dont have to start the buildings you know when you have enough lumber and the timing so that you will have the lumber needed for the alter and farm. I am surprised it made that much of a difference though.

I think that in the long run I would prefer to have my hero and tier 2 faster than riflemen 10 sec faster. But that is a good point anyhow.

IC.Shadow
03-04-2006, 04:08 PM
It shows its not the best.
It actually is the best in certain situations.

VVoLF would use it pretty much 100% of the time, but only because of two reasons. One, he was extremely good. Two, he liked doing unconventional strategies just about every game.

It can work against pretty much any race and unit combination, but it is best suited to matchups previously addressed within this thread (vs UD, get Paladin first [or MK first, then Paladin], then MK, then maybe BloodMage later for Banish - nuke at level 3 does around 1250 damage which clearly outshines the UD nuke by a huge margin). And although it is a solo build, many people find it more effective in team games if they are prone to getting rushed in solo.
Was that comment needed? But i do agree with you that if u make a new strat and practice it alot (kinda like akm and nc.dude did) that its pretty cool but i dont think this fast rifle build is better then the normal build thats all im saying no need to call me small minded or stuff.
It's not very new now. It's from about two years ago. ;)

Tainted Sun
03-04-2006, 04:24 PM
Was that comment needed? But i do agree with you that if u make a new strat and practice it alot (kinda like akm and nc.dude did) that its pretty cool but i dont think this fast rifle build is better then the normal build thats all im saying no need to call me small minded or stuff.

Not really, no, but when you say something like...

Fast rifle sucks anyway ........ (ever seen a pro use it?)

...you lack an open mind, "If the pros dont use it, it's not good," that's a flawed statement. I dont in anyway think youre a stupid person, I just think that you might need to open your mind to alternate strats because it makes the game more intersting.

Either way, you are totally right about AKM and nc.dude, so it's all good.

orcdemolisher
04-18-2006, 07:14 PM
I was thinking about actually practicing ladder so i might try this strat...

Costin_Razvan
04-18-2006, 09:03 PM
mass rifles is a easily countered strat ,
By Hu : Footies with defend , sorcs and breakers
By Orc: wave/chaine + catas
By Ne : bears
By UD : Aboms
its just not worth using it , u will only get many losses

bean12
04-19-2006, 08:48 PM
mass rifles is a easily countered strat ,
By Hu : Footies with defend , sorcs and breakers
By Orc: wave/chaine + catas
By Ne : bears
By UD : Aboms
its just not worth using it , u will only get many losses

If you read through the post you will see that people have said that over and over. Obviously it is true - however, there are still times where the strat can be used to great effect, particularly in team games.

And just as a side note - healing scrolls would help a bunch v. chainwave. And I think that anyone that is still getting mass riflemen when the other guy is getting bears or aboms is doomed to loose. Against tier 1 and 2 stuff rifles should generally be able to handle themselfs quite well if microed right. I would not want to have rifles against defended footies however.

HUBA
04-24-2006, 01:11 AM
EH? interesting build. I actually do a lot of fast rifle build in my AT games...but umm...its quite different. I learned my way from a friend of mine that said he saw it from some pro player, I forgot who, but I copy the way how UD does the fiend build:

Instead of building the typical altar, farm, I'm doing black smith(as oppose to graveyard) and barrack (as oppose to crypt), ....then I do the farm.....and altar last. This, of course will result to an late hero(just like the UD's DK), but I was able to handle and defend well as my partner's DH will help me ...again, I do this in AT games. Sometimes I speed build my altar so it pop it faster to creep...but depends....!

Sooo ya...if u guys wanna c a replay, I uploaded one of my own games just to c how mine works. I guess I'll try shadow's sometime :D

http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=29166

candyhyperalert
05-24-2006, 07:49 PM
its nice but i wouldn't do this in solo just AT because in solo
the ud can rush w/ ghuols and im screwed if they do it right or footies w/ defend..my militia can beat out the footies but ill have a bad disadvatange =[
this strat prbly would only work against ne =[
and orcy raiders would really kill this too =[

AnatoLiy
05-24-2006, 11:00 PM
I dont think this strategy would work in such a small map like Echo Isles, and Terenas Stand... or at least... if your opponent scouts you and sees this bizzare strategy.

JuNk)YaRd(DoG
06-01-2006, 02:58 AM
I dont want to read all 23 pages so can you tell me against which race do i go with this strat?

RMBrady91
06-08-2006, 12:43 AM
This isn't the exact same build that VVolf used to do... His got an earlier hero and more resources for a tech. Here is the version he posted himself on War3Live...

http://www.war3live.com/forums/view_messages.php?ThreadID=1794

IC.Shadow
06-08-2006, 01:34 AM
This isn't the exact same build that VVolf used to do... His got an earlier hero and more resources for a tech. Here is the version he posted himself on War3Live...

http://www.war3live.com/forums/view_messages.php?ThreadID=1794
He had two, and I took this one from one of his replays from a week before I made this thread (so around May 12, 2004). Either way, it nets a very similar result though that one does have a hero faster but slower Rifle production.

I'm surprised you even managed to find that as I didn't even know he'd made a separate thread on any site. No worries though.

Costin_Razvan
06-08-2006, 05:25 AM
Its usable only in team games , maybe in solo but your opponent must not find out what u are doing

RMBrady91
06-08-2006, 10:49 AM
He had two, and I took this one from one of his replays from a week before I made this thread (so around May 12, 2004). Either way, it nets a very similar result though that one does have a hero faster but slower Rifle production.

I'm surprised you even managed to find that as I didn't even know he'd made a separate thread on any site. No worries though.

Actually, the rifles in the version you posted only come out 5 seconds faster, but the hero in the version VVolf posted is actually a full 10-15 seconds faster, not to mention the huge resource/tech advantage of having more peons.

MakeMyDay
06-23-2006, 04:59 PM
EH? interesting build. I actually do a lot of fast rifle build in my AT games...but umm...its quite different. I learned my way from a friend of mine that said he saw it from some pro player, I forgot who, but I copy the way how UD does the fiend build:

Instead of building the typical altar, farm, I'm doing black smith(as oppose to graveyard) and barrack (as oppose to crypt), ....then I do the farm.....and altar last. This, of course will result to an late hero(just like the UD's DK), but I was able to handle and defend well as my partner's DH will help me ...again, I do this in AT games. Sometimes I speed build my altar so it pop it faster to creep...but depends....!

Sooo ya...if u guys wanna c a replay, I uploaded one of my own games just to c how mine works. I guess I'll try shadow's sometime :D

http://www.wcreplays.com/pub_replays.php?get=29166

The replay doesn't work. Warcraft tells me that the map is missing and I should check if (6)Gnollwood.w3x is in my Frozen Throne directory. Even when I put it there it doesn't work. I have no prob lem watching other Gnollwood replays. What now?

0oLucko0
06-23-2006, 09:58 PM
The replay doesn't work. Warcraft tells me that the map is missing and I should check if (6)Gnollwood.w3x is in my Frozen Throne directory. Even when I put it there it doesn't work. I have no prob lem watching other Gnollwood replays. What now?

You probably can't watch it becauz they changed gnollwood in v1.20d. While i believe this replay has the old version of gnollwood. (v1.20)

MakeMyDay
06-24-2006, 05:09 AM
Oh :(

LordMorvan
06-24-2006, 11:44 AM
Download (http://rapidshare.de/files/17925483/_6_GnollWood.w3x.html) the 1.20a Gnoll Wood version. Take the 1.20d version out of the WarcraftIII/Maps/FrozenThrone Folder and put it somewhere else (for example in a Folder called "Gnoll Wood 1.20d" on your Desktop).
Now put the downloaded Map(1.20a) in that Folder(FrozenThrone/Maps).
Start WarcraftIII and watch the replay. Afterwards, you should take the downloaded Gnoll Wood Map(1.20a) out of the Folder(FrozenThrone/Maps) and put the 1.20d version (from the desktop-folder) in again.
If you don't put the 1.20d version in the Folder(FrozenThrone) again, you won't be able to play Gnoll Wood on Battle.net and thus will disc out of every game of Gnoll Wood. But if you follow the steps correctly you will have no problem.
have fun

you can do the same thing in 1.20e for Terenas Stand Replays of 1.20a-d
to watch them.

remind_
06-24-2006, 02:09 PM
i wouldnt say that the rifle caster strat is bad and doesnt work anymore etc.. because that isnt true.

with innovation this strat CAN work, it just requires an open mind and original thinking to pull off, vs a dh/naga archer elf this would rape at t2 push, vs a undead who was teching to destro/abom this would also rape hard at t2.

i used to play human quite a bit back when riflecaster was the cool thing to do, it works, it just requires a sufficent level of skill from all areas of this game (macro, micro, timing etc..) if one is lacking then you are bound to lose.

oh and to the guy who says no pros use rifle caster, you havent seen too many pro human replays have you...

Basic.Icecream
06-24-2006, 04:20 PM
i wouldnt say that the rifle caster strat is bad and doesnt work anymore etc.. because that isnt true.

with innovation this strat CAN work, it just requires an open mind and original thinking to pull off, vs a dh/naga archer elf this would rape at t2 push, vs a undead who was teching to destro/abom this would also rape hard at t2.

i used to play human quite a bit back when riflecaster was the cool thing to do, it works, it just requires a sufficent level of skill from all areas of this game (macro, micro, timing etc..) if one is lacking then you are bound to lose.

oh and to the guy who says no pros use rifle caster, you havent seen too many pro human replays have you...



Show's your ignorance of the game and why you shouldn't be handing out advice like you are some pro.



Pro Humans use Rifle/Caster against ONE race, and that is against NE. Even then, it's starting to phase out, giving way to mass Breaker/Caster/Mortar, or a fast tier 2 push with just AM/Naga/Foot/Militia/Towers.



Rifle/Caster does not work against UD for many reasons. At tier 2 the UD has statues, a nerubian tower, and his own big freezing tower of doom. He's also on blight also, which increases his hp regeneration, along with the DK's aura, and statues healing. Now here's what tends to happen when you push an UD tier 2.


Push, force UD back

UD sits back in base, Coil/Novas a Priest/Sorc

Turtles forever untill he gets Destro form from his SH in the back of his base

Transforms two statues, runs out and rapes you




Doesn't sound too nice does it? It's exactly what happened to every Human player on the face of the planet that tried to Rifle/Caster against UD. It just doesn't work anymore (due to the many nerfs to Rifle/Caster, and the awesomeness of UD base defense). You are better off going Knight/Gyro rather then going Rifle/Caster.

RyDogg309
07-01-2006, 02:57 PM
grreat guild wolf ty for that build

jaMpa.
07-01-2006, 08:51 PM
Basic.Icecream, ur pretty right ( thought with ne u see some rifles first to counter early dryads and then casters mortars lately ). And why would the ud make destros vs. rifles and not abos. Still ur right in general. I tried this build myself and it doesn't really work.
Overall this strat/build is pretty bad.. sry ya'll

HuMaN_!lluSioN
07-10-2006, 12:22 PM
if i were going with this start & i will get attacked by the enemy in the starting then?????

HuMaN_!lluSioN
07-10-2006, 12:26 PM
can any one help me i m going with the normal strat (am+footies) if my enemy attacks me early (without killing any dragons straight to me) then wat should be the reply from me

Mad_Madness
07-10-2006, 03:08 PM
if i were going with this start & i will get attacked by the enemy in the starting then?????

your getting your hero and rifles out when they are at ur base... also you can use militia to fend them off.

Basic.Icecream
07-14-2006, 11:43 AM
Basic.Icecream, ur pretty right ( thought with ne u see some rifles first to counter early dryads and then casters mortars lately ). And why would the ud make destros vs. rifles and not abos. Still ur right in general. I tried this build myself and it doesn't really work.
Overall this strat/build is pretty bad.. sry ya'll



Destroyers help alot against Summons + Sorcs, that's why you get them.

WeEatDeadPeople
07-21-2006, 03:43 AM
Theres still absolutely no reason to start n stop the build. Just find out how much lumber you need ahead of time. Its completely wasted effort

IC.Shadow
07-21-2006, 03:52 AM
Theres still absolutely no reason to start n stop the build. Just find out how much lumber you need ahead of time. Its completely wasted effort
As stated multiple times before, it was so you could mine with only 4 Peasants, as this was designed long before Blizzard patched it so Human and Orc had to use 5 Peasants/Peons to mine gold at the same speed as Undead and Night Elf.

Back then, if you used the Farm and Altar to form a narrow path between your Hall and the mine, you only needed 4 Peasants on gold to gather gold almost as quickly as the other races. You only added the 5th if you wanted to get gold a shade faster than the other races could.


However, you are correct that that no longer applies, so that is obviously no longer a requirement, and merely an option.

WeEatDeadPeople
07-21-2006, 04:12 AM
Alright, ill shaddup now :D
As stated multiple times before, it was so you could mine with only 4 Peasants, as this was designed long before Blizzard patched it so Human and Orc had to use 5 Peasants/Peons to mine gold at the same speed as Undead and Night Elf.

Back then, if you used the Farm and Altar to form a narrow path between your Hall and the mine, you only needed 4 Peasants on gold to gather gold almost as quickly as the other races. You only added the 5th if you wanted to get gold a shade faster than the other races could.


However, you are correct that that no longer applies, so that is obviously no longer a requirement, and merely an option.

G-Minor
07-21-2006, 11:22 PM
Wow this build is good, but not effective against human mirrors.

Foon
08-15-2006, 02:45 AM
Show's your ignorance of the game and why you shouldn't be handing out advice like you are some pro.



Pro Humans use Rifle/Caster against ONE race, and that is against NE. Even then, it's starting to phase out, giving way to mass Breaker/Caster/Mortar, or a fast tier 2 push with just AM/Naga/Foot/Militia/Towers.



Rifle/Caster does not work against UD for many reasons. At tier 2 the UD has statues, a nerubian tower, and his own big freezing tower of doom. He's also on blight also, which increases his hp regeneration, along with the DK's aura, and statues healing. Now here's what tends to happen when you push an UD tier 2.


Push, force UD back

UD sits back in base, Coil/Novas a Priest/Sorc

Turtles forever untill he gets Destro form from his SH in the back of his base

Transforms two statues, runs out and rapes you




Doesn't sound too nice does it? It's exactly what happened to every Human player on the face of the planet that tried to Rifle/Caster against UD. It just doesn't work anymore (due to the many nerfs to Rifle/Caster, and the awesomeness of UD base defense). You are better off going Knight/Gyro rather then going Rifle/Caster.

you state that rifle/caster is giving away to breaker/caster/mort. lets get one thing straight. breaker is considered a caster. next morts are added while still geting rifles. so the correct term would be rifle/cast/mort. rifles/morts will own the dryads. if you only have morts the ne just runs and focuses while bears tie up the breakers. you do need rifles

Overpriced.hoe
08-15-2006, 02:48 AM
rifle-caster-mortar works on ud. you just gotta smash their shop before they hit tier 3

TheChissu
08-19-2006, 03:22 PM
Sweet, I think this is an awesome build!! Does anyone have any "newer" replays for version 1.20? I watched some of the past ones, and I need more~ xD

I WOULD watch the ones for the past versions, but for some reason... I can't seem to find a link/dl to Warcraft Zei that works.. :angry:

PS. Yes, I've tried this build a couple times.. Lost and won some. I just cant get the build arrangement right.. =\

DonkDat
08-19-2006, 03:44 PM
try writing it down. i dont like it because it isnt part of my game, but i got the build fairly accurate by writing it down.

TheChissu
08-19-2006, 05:58 PM
Well, yea. I do it down.. But it doesn't tell me where to put the buildings?? I usually try to block out the entrance to my base with farms and such.. Is that good enough?

Hmm.... Should I use VVolfs original build? Or the ones that have been posting along this thread?

TheChissu
08-21-2006, 08:36 PM
Sorry for the double post.. But.. Replays pl0x~ :happy:

BliTzKrieg
08-22-2006, 03:09 AM
you state that rifle/caster is giving away to breaker/caster/mort. lets get one thing straight. breaker is considered a caster. next morts are added while still geting rifles. so the correct term would be rifle/cast/mort. rifles/morts will own the dryads. if you only have morts the ne just runs and focuses while bears tie up the breakers. you do need rifles

Well breakers aren't counted as casters, more like anti casters..

DonkDat
08-22-2006, 02:20 PM
yeah breakers are trained from the same building, but are considered different from casters.

bigsipo
08-23-2006, 07:41 AM
nice
good build for at or rt

WiZiRD
09-11-2006, 07:29 AM
I played a level 29 NE and anhilated him he had DH/Archers :D

Shd0wkrtnA
09-18-2006, 07:03 AM
one thing i dont get it why u only START but not finish the altar ans farm at the start.
Other wise then that i tried the strat and it did outnumber NE with their archer and demon hunter.

i had 8riflemen and AM

while he had 6archers and DH

But when it comes to mirror and UD it doesnt work as well

JuNk)YaRd(DoG
09-18-2006, 12:15 PM
I read the first few pages of this thread,adn i just want to ask is the fast rifle BO the same as in the 1.15>If its not pls tell me what it is or on which page is it...

IC.Shadow
09-18-2006, 09:07 PM
one thing i dont get it why u only START but not finish the altar ans farm at the start.
Man...that's three threads you posted in asking questions that have already been answered multiple times in the thread.

Before replying to a thread, if you have questions, please at least read the thread (or, if it's big, part of it) first.

I've already addressed that numerous times in here. :/

TheChissu
09-24-2006, 06:01 PM
Hmm. Can I have some "recent(1.20)" replays of this??!

HUBA.IbuPROfeN.
10-06-2006, 01:41 PM
ya damn i wanted to c a replay as well. since the fast rifle build is a bit different than mine, i wanted to know which one is better. But anyways, i only do the fast rifles in 2v2...and ur VERY vulnerable during early harass...such as dh, bm and dk. Its hard to put up an archane tower to defend the early harass =/

D3aThsShAd0w
10-12-2006, 08:03 AM
i haven't used this in quite sometime, i think im gonna try it again later 2day to see if it still works ;o

ne one else still use this build and do u have replays?

BliTzKrieg
10-12-2006, 08:56 AM
Man...that's three threads you posted in asking questions that have already been answered multiple times in the thread.

Before replying to a thread, if you have questions, please at least read the thread (or, if it's big, part of it) first.

I've already addressed that numerous times in here. :/

Well you don't expect him to go through a 25 page topic.................
Anyway to poster above, I don't think this strat would still work, players have evolved tons since then.

Conkers07
11-10-2006, 09:31 AM
Yess a very fast rife tactic! But what race to use it on in solo. No to vs orc cuz you're most likely gonna wanna do a teir 2 push. Vs Human no, they will most likely get footies, and if they dont they will get rifes, which if you outnumber the rifes with foots and are getting teir 2 you will have an advantage. Vs UD, Most likely not as they will probably get feinds, and if they get mass ghouls, good luck killing a mass of them with rifes unless you have very good micro. Vs night elf this might actually work, Rifes do decent againts archers, and Rifes can kill huntress with the right micro. BUT night elf will most likely rush his own teir 2 while making a counter expo (as to they will think you are making one). But yess, this is the fasts rife tactic i ever tried. Might work better in team than solo, thx for the tactic shadow. pCe!

Idioteque
12-12-2006, 10:53 PM
Def a team build, can't say i've actually tried it out, seems like it could take a while to get used to.

7DeadlySins.
12-16-2006, 04:53 PM
This needs some updating, for instance a blacksmith isn't 100 wood :p

Otherwise pretty cool, but I still like a couple footies :/

rt3378
12-16-2006, 05:07 PM
i think ppl need a few foots for meat. or else i think mass ghouls or grunts or foots or hunts will ownthe rifles

IC.Shadow
12-16-2006, 09:56 PM
This needs some updating, for instance a blacksmith isn't 100 wood :p
No, you don't wait until 100 lumber because the Blacksmith requires 100. It's so that your Peasants gather lumber faster before you begin building (because they aren't gathering lumber when they're building).

You start the Blacksmith at 100 lumber and, soon after, you start the Barracks once you have 60 lumber again. Blacksmith doesn't cost 100 lumber.

blynk182
12-16-2006, 11:07 PM
yeah, this strat reminds me of mass fiends :) only you dont go pally first to get a heal. I dont think it works anymore other than team games

IdSayBARELY
01-02-2007, 08:15 AM
yeah, this strat reminds me of mass fiends :) only you dont go pally first to get a heal. I dont think it works anymore other than team gamesIt might, but probably not too well on higher levels of play. But if 4v4 RT it might :D

CTMWood
01-02-2007, 01:29 PM
I've tried it a fair bit recently.

It obviously doesnt work in Mirror as we know riflemen are useless in HUvHU

It's a bit risky against Orc as you either need a tavern hero with this BO (ie not AM, who is vital vs orc) or you get a late AM, who doesnt have the same chance of creeping and is less effective.

It's not bad against NE if they go straight to Hunts, but if they do archers then it's not as effective, as riflemen are only slightly better than archers, but cost a lot more, and cant shadowmeld

Similar versus UD. It aint too bad if they go fiends, but DK's coil means you wont be saving very many rflemen by running them away, and theyre expensive..

IdSayBARELY
01-02-2007, 01:46 PM
I guess it works better in team games where you allies to defend you in case the evil orcs come.

Coookie
01-03-2007, 09:17 PM
I only ever used this in RT, but it's damn good when used in RT. =D. I just don't think it'll do well in solo..