ZvZ is this considered cheesy?

[nelfandmeisimba]

Hi I recently played a masters player named illyria. Now I lost this game and throughout the game I was being bad mannered telling him his build is cheesy/ all innish. Illyria argued that his build was not cheesy and is often used at a high level of play. My reason for posting this is to find out what the you guys think?

http://replayfu.com/r/J8RgNh

[Gloop]

moved to sc2 general, zvz is supposed to be a cheese fest, I 10 pool every zvz.

[iNt]Jutai]

yes, 10 pooling is cheesy. You actually lost more to his initial lings than you should have.


Basically 2 queens at his ramp means some sort of tech, usually it isn't muta because people figured out you can just make a bunch of units and go do massive damage to him if he tries 1 base muta while expanding, his only option is to drone behind his muta's, if he makes units hes really really far behind.


You just didn't prepare or scout his transition at all.

[aurawashere]

I stopped watching after 5 mins in, but yes 10 pool is cheesy.

14gas/pool>10pool especially if he doesn't grab gas.

Advice; When his lings entered your base you should of just ran your drones and waited for your lings instead of trying to fight it. You had your speed a lot earlier = map control.

[bryan57s]

Just because its often used at high levels of play doesn't mean it's not cheesy.

[dephy]

well zergs can be extreamly greedy, so tvz zvz, often players open with some early agression or cheeze, toss cant really do that much of early agression, so you can see zergs maxing out at 11min with roach ling 200/200.

[eniram]

ZvZ is an allin type matchup. Not all games are allins but allins are not cheese, it's standard.

[iNt]Jutai]

Originally Posted by eniram

ZvZ is an allin type matchup. Not all games are allins but allins are not cheese, it's standard.

10 pools are not solid play..or standard. Its a coinflip.

[microguide]

Cheesy is just a word, why does it matter?

[dephy]

Originally Posted by microguide

Cheesy is just a word, why does it matter?

i have to agree on this, in wc3 all i did in udvsorc mu was lvl2 dk tr, i beat some good orc's to with it to, i never though it as cheeze when i played wc3, in wc3 i dont remember anyone whining that much about early attack-agresive play.
In sc2 doing aggresive allin builds somehow became big nono, and everyone have to play simcity instead actually attacking each other and shit.

[Sacred Reich]

Well in zvz I keep losing to 10pools. Is there a way to get Roaches in zvz because I don't want to play ling/bane wars.

[4Fun]

if you have good queen placement and 1-2 spine crawlers, early pressure is irrelevant. Just get some banelings for defensive purposes though.

[Sacred Reich]

Do banelings explode automatically when you just tell them to attack or do you have to press the explode button?

[iNt]Jutai]

Originally Posted by Sacred Reich

Well in zvz I keep losing to 10pools. Is there a way to get Roaches in zvz because I don't want to play ling/bane wars.

If your opponent sees you skipping banes he can just run you over. You also shouldn't lose to 10 pools unless u open 15 hatch O.o

Originally Posted by Sacred Reich

Do banelings explode automatically when you just tell them to attack or do you have to press the explode button?

They will auto explode, but the x button is better because if you have the time to pull it off. Like if you see a bunch of lings chillin outside ur base and u catch him sleeping u can let all his lings surround your baneling that hit x before he can move away. Or you have multiple banes and ur defending against a lot of lings, hes clustered around 2 banes, but you only need 1 to kill the lings. Stuff like that is more nitpicky than anything, but say against a ling all in if u wasted 1 too many banes while u were droning the next wave can kill you.

[Sacred Reich]

Originally Posted by iNt]Jutai

If your opponent sees you skipping banes he can just run you over. You also shouldn't lose to 10 pools unless u open 15 hatch O.o

Ain't gonna lie thats what I open with 15 hatch usually. Is there a fast roaches build? If there isn't, feel free to theory craft one so I can try it out.

[iNt]Jutai]

Originally Posted by Sacred Reich

Ain't gonna lie thats what I open with 15 hatch usually. Is there a fast roaches build? If there isn't, feel free to theory craft one so I can try it out.

With 15 hatch? Yeah, but none of them actually hold all ins, and they will also put you behind economically if he chooses not to all in you.


You can plant a warren down at soon as your pool pops, make like 2 scouting lings or whatever then expand once you get some out. But again, you're way behind someone who opened banes. Since roaches don't teleport to your base like ling/bane, you have all the time in the world to get spines up and squeeze in drones.

[SmiLe)]

define cheesy.

some people find meching in tvz cheesy, some people find 1 basing cheesy, some people find single stargate play cheesy.

[Sacred Reich]

Originally Posted by SmiLe)

define cheesy.

some people find meching in tvz cheesy, some people find 1 basing cheesy, some people find single stargate play cheesy.

Only Idra finds that cheesy and that's mainly because he a goddamn moron. Running his Ultralisks into chokepoints all the time when tanks are sieged at the other end...

[D1ce]

10pool is the most economic early pool that is only slightly behind 14/14. I don't really consider any ZvZ openings to be "cheesy" compared to other match-ups since they all have their place in the metagame (more so in the context of a BoX than isolated ladder games). They are great at keeping each other "in check" and most build order match-ups don't end up in a straight loss if you know what you're doing. Of course on the ladder where a short-sighted mentality of "just winning now" is common and the previous is ignored or not even considered, the word "cheese" is much more frequently used (and probably "accurately").

The match-up "looks" cheesy and all-in etc. but that would just be a symptom of not really understanding it, or just having ladder as your primary play experience (which would obviously color how you look at the pros doing it).