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Unread 09-06-2010, 07:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ipure View Post
so better hide your kids, hide your wife, and probably hide your husband too, coz DT rapes everybody outta here.
You had so much opportunity for "hide your Drones" but where's the imagination? Antoine Dodson frowns on you, boy.

I love it how I'm getting brought into arguments. It makes me feel kinda high-and-mighty. But let's clear one thing up; no Zerg players have told me that my PvZ is about 1.2k - it's an estimate of my own from my 70%+ winrate vs my 1.1k-1.2k Zerg practice partner. Frankly, who cares? That's not really justification for an argument.

What I'd also like to do is defend DTs. They are a severely underused unit against Zerg; there's this misconception that they become useless once the Zerg has a Lair and Overseers on the field. What you're not looking at when you make this assumption is that Overseers have to be there to respond properly to DTs. Look at the following paragraph. The bolded words are all the stuff that a Zerg player has to use Overseers to secure or pull off.

Of course to start with, the Zerg has to have Overseers with easy access to defend his base. The Zerg has to take an Overseer to every expansion he sets up or risk it getting stopped by a DT. Indeed, regularly I delay the third for 1-2 minutes with Phoenix/DT usage - he needs Hydras to stop the Phoenixes killing the Overseers and Overseers to stop the DTs killing the expos. The Zerg has to take an Overseer with him if he wants to drop (or more likely Nydus) because the Toss just warps in 3-4 DTs and he doesn't have to move his army back, which is what you want to achieve with an offensive Nydus. The Zerg has to take an Overseer with him when he's moving around the map in general and finally he has to take an Overseer with him if he wants to clear out any Xel'Naga Watchtowers although these two go hand-in-hand.

Okay, I hear you say; but what difference does this make? The difference is that Protoss has a useful-throughout-the-game mineral dump (Zealots) which mean that we can spend gas more freely without having to worry about having an army that gets cut through like paper. The Zerg's mineral dump? Lings. They suck by comparison and are completely nullified by good position. The Zerg needs to spend his gas on units and instead he's spending 100 gas per pop on Overseers to cover his expos and entrances to his base. More gas on mobile detection means less gas on units. Less gas on units means a rubbish-er army.

Aside from the obvious benefits of being able to delay expos and get a modicum of map control, DTs stretch the Zerg; which is exactly what you want to do to a race which has such unforgiving macro.
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Unread 09-06-2010, 07:47 PM   #22
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just pointing out that if the zerg scouts the shrine then he can easily just evo chamber -> spore to protect his bases until he can move out with overseers. The spores don't set you behind in comparison to the gas required by the protoss in rushing for the DT's. Now sure he can morph them into archons but its unlikely they will be getting too much use on the drone lines so the whole rush to DT gets nullified pretty well
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Unread 09-06-2010, 07:53 PM   #23
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this is about harrasing, not all-ins or cheese. And no, once again, that's not the case: no where did i, or any toss player, say that we have to go with 1 void ray.
You clearly are even more limited/narrow minded than I thought when it comes to basic knowledge. If a certain strategy which is ment as a type of harrassing is able to even destroy the opponent why on earth would it be an all-in. I've seen HuK transition out of this start just fine.


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alright, i'll work with you. that could fly, but the gas + time delay could be crucial.
No it will not be crucial. You and many others are just deluded and seem to think there is only one possible time window during which you can harrass and only in that specific window, it will be effective.
You can harras the entire game, in most cases it will prove itself to be very effective when you learn to have patience.

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late game, sure. but early to mid game, don't expect me to maintain a well fooded army for STANDARD play, and go twilight -> dark shrine -> then 2-4 125 gassed dts. Don't compare my play to redrag's, clearly we have different play styles and openings.
If one play style manages to utilise certain units and strategies with great success, the units and strategies which you claim to be impossible or very hard to use then I would start doubting my playstyle.


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lol. this is why i extremely dislike you, asshole.
I don't like you either, do you see me sputtering insults towards you across these boards like you do to me? No, it se
seems very understandable that you are only 15, you'll mature some day.
And you dislike me because I use your fallacies against you?
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This could mean the human genome is now back to 50% complete.
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Unread 09-06-2010, 08:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dbqinsa View Post
just pointing out that if the zerg scouts the shrine then he can easily just evo chamber -> spore to protect his bases until he can move out with overseers. The spores don't set you behind in comparison to the gas required by the protoss in rushing for the DT's. Now sure he can morph them into archons but its unlikely they will be getting too much use on the drone lines so the whole rush to DT gets nullified pretty well
Yeah, like I said, he only has to bring the Overseers when he's setting up the expansion. Also you can snipe tech buildings that aren't in range of the Spore Colonies so he needs Overseers near his base anyway.

EDIT: DT + Obs is also excellent for killing Creep Tumors.
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Unread 09-06-2010, 08:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The_Teleporter View Post
Im sorry, DTs require 50(warpgate)+100+250 gas and cost 125 gas themselves Gateway+Cyber+TC+DS takes 65+50+50+100=265 seconds to build whereas pool+wait for 100 gas(25 seconds off 1 geyser)+Lair takes 65+25+80=170 seconds to build. If you don't have a lair by the time DTs come you are doing something very very wrong and if you do you can just run your drones around until your overseer has finished morphing (DTs run slower than workers).
So I can also use this flawed logic. Ultralisks require hive tech, to actually be able to start making ultralisks I would neef 100 for metabolic boost (you were eager enough to throw in the warpgate upgrade even though you don't need that at all.), I would need 100+100 for lair tech and an infestation pit. Then I would need another 150 to be able to tech to hive, another 200 for an ultralisk cavern. Chitinous plating? Another 150 and if I want to start getting some actual ultralisks out, I need another 200 for every ultralisk, not to mention the time it would take and bases I would need to be able to support this
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This could mean the human genome is now back to 50% complete.
lol
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Unread 09-06-2010, 08:23 PM   #26
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i would consider warpgate an absolutely needed upgrade
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Unread 09-06-2010, 08:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by RedRagToAnOrc View Post
Yeah, like I said, he only has to bring the Overseers when he's setting up the expansion. Also you can snipe tech buildings that aren't in range of the Spore Colonies so he needs Overseers near his base anyway.

EDIT: DT + Obs is also excellent for killing Creep Tumors.
Yeah I really like using DTs a lot also. I usually throw down a shrine even if I don't make use of it right away because late game it can be very helpful. Especially warping some in in a very close battle. I try to snipe Overseers right away to make use of it
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Unread 09-06-2010, 08:59 PM   #28
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Way to stay on topic:
Anyways, saw this frightening blink stalker harass where P did this for a couple minutes, teched to collosi and rolled the zerg.
Begins at 6:40 or so.

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Unread 09-06-2010, 09:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RedRagToAnOrc View Post
You had so much opportunity for "hide your Drones" but where's the imagination? Antoine Dodson frowns on you, boy.

I love it how I'm getting brought into arguments. It makes me feel kinda high-and-mighty. But let's clear one thing up; no Zerg players have told me that my PvZ is about 1.2k - it's an estimate of my own from my 70%+ winrate vs my 1.1k-1.2k Zerg practice partner. Frankly, who cares? That's not really justification for an argument.

What I'd also like to do is defend DTs. They are a severely underused unit against Zerg; there's this misconception that they become useless once the Zerg has a Lair and Overseers on the field. What you're not looking at when you make this assumption is that Overseers have to be there to respond properly to DTs. Look at the following paragraph. The bolded words are all the stuff that a Zerg player has to use Overseers to secure or pull off.

Of course to start with, the Zerg has to have Overseers with easy access to defend his base. The Zerg has to take an Overseer to every expansion he sets up or risk it getting stopped by a DT. Indeed, regularly I delay the third for 1-2 minutes with Phoenix/DT usage - he needs Hydras to stop the Phoenixes killing the Overseers and Overseers to stop the DTs killing the expos. The Zerg has to take an Overseer with him if he wants to drop (or more likely Nydus) because the Toss just warps in 3-4 DTs and he doesn't have to move his army back, which is what you want to achieve with an offensive Nydus. The Zerg has to take an Overseer with him when he's moving around the map in general and finally he has to take an Overseer with him if he wants to clear out any Xel'Naga Watchtowers although these two go hand-in-hand.

Okay, I hear you say; but what difference does this make? The difference is that Protoss has a useful-throughout-the-game mineral dump (Zealots) which mean that we can spend gas more freely without having to worry about having an army that gets cut through like paper. The Zerg's mineral dump? Lings. They suck by comparison and are completely nullified by good position. The Zerg needs to spend his gas on units and instead he's spending 100 gas per pop on Overseers to cover his expos and entrances to his base. More gas on mobile detection means less gas on units. Less gas on units means a rubbish-er army.

Aside from the obvious benefits of being able to delay expos and get a modicum of map control, DTs stretch the Zerg; which is exactly what you want to do to a race which has such unforgiving macro.



DT/Phoenix is possibly the strongest mid game strat/tactic Toss has against Z. It is the key to stopping Z from overexpanding.
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Unread 09-06-2010, 09:07 PM   #30
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Okay, I've just pruned 10 posts from this thread the old-fashioned way instead of mod-editing them all. Constructive arguments are good; petty one-liners are not and I've been seeing too many of them in the past week in this forum.

I'm going to sleep now. Play nice while I'm gone!
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Unread 09-06-2010, 09:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xml View Post
Way to stay on topic:
Anyways, saw this frightening blink stalker harass where P did this for a couple minutes, teched to collosi and rolled the zerg.
Begins at 6:40 or so.

that was a great game, man. commentator was kinda meh, though @_@
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Unread 09-06-2010, 09:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by xml View Post
Way to stay on topic:
Anyways, saw this frightening blink stalker harass where P did this for a couple minutes, teched to collosi and rolled the zerg.
Begins at 6:40 or so.

Video doesn't show.
Edit: I had already seen the game. It was perfectly executed by the protoss but the game shows some pretty obvious map design flaws. If that's not going to be adressed same goes for kulas ravine I guess we zergs will have another map to thumb down.
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This could mean the human genome is now back to 50% complete.
lol

Last edited by 4Fun; 09-06-2010 at 10:02 PM.
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Unread 09-06-2010, 09:56 PM   #33
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Video doesn't show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq1Tb...layer_embedded

if you didn't get it already
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Unread 09-06-2010, 10:01 PM   #34
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4fun started it!

but for real, nice find mr youtuber
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Unread 09-06-2010, 10:07 PM   #35
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RedRag, post a game or two of your ''DT and Phoenix harrassment" , are you doing this off of one base? when are you expoing? because that is so gas heavy and a time consuming mixture to do lol
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Unread 09-06-2010, 11:05 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by xml View Post
Way to stay on topic:
Anyways, saw this frightening blink stalker harass where P did this for a couple minutes, teched to collosi and rolled the zerg.
Begins at 6:40 or so.

posted this in another thread but felt this was relevant.

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Unread 09-07-2010, 05:28 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by 4Fun View Post
So I can also use this flawed logic. Ultralisks require hive tech, to actually be able to start making ultralisks I would neef 100 for metabolic boost (you were eager enough to throw in the warpgate upgrade even though you don't need that at all.), I would need 100+100 for lair tech and an infestation pit. Then I would need another 150 to be able to tech to hive, another 200 for an ultralisk cavern. Chitinous plating? Another 150 and if I want to start getting some actual ultralisks out, I need another 200 for every ultralisk, not to mention the time it would take and bases I would need to be able to support this
Flawed logic? You said a DT rush would be out as fast as lair, I have not said ultralisks will be out as fast as anything that protoss can make...

Also redrag, what do you do when zerg takes his 2base hydra ball and just attacks you because you spent so much money on gimmick units? I don't see how you can survive a 20-30 hydra push when you've got so much gas invested in units that are useless vs them.
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Unread 09-07-2010, 05:29 AM   #38
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RedRag, post a game or two of your ''DT and Phoenix harrassment" , are you doing this off of one base? when are you expoing? because that is so gas heavy and a time consuming mixture to do lol
Will post some replays when I next use it, don't have any saved atm.

I get two Phoenixes and send them off to harass while I take my first expo and tech to DTs with the spare gas (spending minerals on Nexus + Probes etc.) then take my third when I push out with my initial army. People think it's too gas intensive but given that you're working off four geysers from fairly early on with a 5th and 6th going up when you push the Z third you're fine to transition into whatever.
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Unread 09-07-2010, 05:33 AM   #39
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Flawed logic? You said a DT rush would be out as fast as lair, I have not said ultralisks will be out as fast as anything that protoss can make...

Also redrag, what do you do when zerg takes his 2base hydra ball and just attacks you because you spent so much money on gimmick units? I don't see how you can survive a 20-30 hydra push when you've got so much gas invested in units that are useless vs them.
If you had read any closer I said I used a 14 pool 15 hatch, which is still nevertheless quite common.
I also backed up my argument by saying that Dimaga lost to two dark templars on desert oasis before he even started teching to hive. A protoss can easily put 2gate pressure on you, making you spend a lot of stuff on minerals while you are not really mining any gas yet or not much. You need the first 100 for metabolic boost also in practically every case. Pretty obvious that dark templar can arrive just when your lair finishes.
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This could mean the human genome is now back to 50% complete.
lol
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Unread 09-07-2010, 05:36 AM   #40
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DT tech takes 95 seconds longer, the 300 minerals needed for your 15 hatch do not take 95 seconds to collect. See my point?
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