out mass the wyverns .fiends are cheaper.
On large maps like Gnoll wood I'm having problems against Orc who mass wyverns
Gargs < BR's.
Fiends < Wyvs, especially with poison upgrade.
Destros < Wyvs and BR's again
out mass the wyverns .fiends are cheaper.
______________________________Doing the right thing doesn't mean your Doing the right thing.
NIGHT_echoes:Y fiends has autocast web while raiders doesn't have?
Joshua:Cuz web comes from the fiends b*tt while nets comes from the raiders Pocket.
u krazy mass fiends and maybe get some necros
Fiends with web and ghouls. Wyverns can't really move into range to focus fire your fiends, focus fire wyverns with ghouls and fiends while they are webbed. Nuke heroes with DK and Lich.
------------------------------- Paper is balanced, but Rock needs a nerf. -Scissors
Unholy frenzy fiends....or curse the wyvern...
"And the waters gone, and it's run away, and there's nothing left for us today. As we're falling from the sky, and every step that you may take, even though you made me cry, I will love you till the day that i die."
its become actually quite easy to beat mass wyvern since 1.16...
if you hurry up with your t2 upgrade ( at 28 food ) you will have 4 fiends, dk lich and web by the time he pulls out his first 2 wyverns. thats the best moment to attack.
head for his base when you start upgrading web. or you can drag the game a little longer.
then you should watch out for these things :
1) shadow hunter : this biatch is a huge pain in the ass with hex/ wave
so nuke him asap
2) nova on the wyverns. makes huge difference
3) watch out for your statues. dont put them on the front line. pull them back, they'll get focus fired on
4) grab rods on both heroes ( or even 3 heroes - dl is the best option )
5) burrow and damage upgrades for fiends : dont look at the unit icons in the bottom of the screen. keep your eye on the actuall fight. move out the fiend he focuses on.
if you cant move him out, burrow and coil
thats pretty much it.
wtf? What u said does not make any sense.
1) nuke him asap= coil/nova. There goes ur nova for the wyvs. and coil for feind healing.
2)no more mana since we used it on sh
4)well Fuck u do that with every race.
5) do u know how easy feinds get owned!? he wouldnt survive the Whole dilema if u dont look at the bottom of the screen
what if he goes grunts at start so he has a small grunt army before he switches to wyvs?
mass the fiends like it is your job.
and upgrade them.
try getting dl third for more aoe insteald of cl/impale.
______________________________http://www.last.fm/user/mylifeyourmovieOriginally Posted by Global.Threat
1 ) only 1 coil and 1 nova is enough to kill the sh. Focus fire with fiends untill he reaches yellow health then hit coil and nova. he wont realize what happened.Originally Posted by FeltMarker
2) if you have statues, and at least level 2 heroes, you have enough mana.
3) it happens to me often, that statues get in the front of my army, just a precaucion.
5) yes I know how easy fiends get owned. thats exactly why I told you not to look at the bottom .
here's a replay . this guy wasnt really massing wyverns, he had like 5,6, and a few grunts. you can see how to use burrow, and nuke
Last edited by seYo.; 09-07-2004 at 12:19 PM.
I agree with what seyo said, and i have some things to add on.
first, always send skellies to scout very early game, while surviving the FS harass. if you see no rax tech, immediately grab your DK and fiends and move towards the orc base. it might be harder to scout on gnoll wood, and you might discover it late, but the timing will still be all right.
once at his base, i usually reach there with 1 dk + 4 fiends, and i'm still upgrading to hotd. immediately ff the burrows, and kill any peons that try to repair them. should the FS come to harass your fiends, focus on the wolves, or the FS himself. should he continue to go for your base, get your 3 lumber ghouls and rely on your nerubian tower for defense while attacking his base.
if he has a few grunts (fast tech late rax build), it'll be harder for you to harass, but it still can be done. focus fire on the grunts and pulling back your targeted fiends will own the grunts. when you have to retreat, go creeping and continually scout the base because he might be going grunt/raider, or grunt/mass wyvs. in the former, it will be better to turtle till tier 3 and getting wyrms or aboms etc. but in the latter, you'll still have to hit ASAP.
if you get pushed back, return to his base asap once he's finished teching. my typical army would be 1 dk, 6 fiends with web, a lich that's halfway trained, and burrow which is almost researched. you should only encounter a few wyvs (at most 2), a TC/SH and a FS. if he went the fast tech late rax build, his wyvs might not even be out yet, and he'll have around 4-5 grunts and a second hero on the way.
once there, manually web the wyverns, and kill them. when your lich is out, grab a rod, and proceed to go to the orc base. once all wyvs are killed, focus fire + burrow micro your fiends on the grunts. i prefer to leave hero killing to the last. (note: always keep your fiends separate from the DK in another group to facilitate easy manual web, rather than having to tab past your DK to web. when you focus fire, they will not autocast web, and that'll be disaster if he has a few wyvs and you don't get rid of them quickly.)
once you've killed his few wyvs, stick around and try to finish him off. do not let the orc get to tier 3 and the poison upgrade and you'll be fine.
1) you have enough mana on your lich to cast 2 novas, and your DK has enough mana to cast 4-5 coils at level 2-3. also, ever heard of mana potions?Originally Posted by FeltMarker
2) read above.
3/4) they're just friendly reminders
5) wyverns don't own fiends fast in small numbers, and that's the best timing to attack. grunts are a harassment but burrow micro > them. as long as the fiends focus fire on the wyverns, they die quickly because of their armour.
I would suggest not letting him get to wyvs
if he does.. fiends i guess.. maybe add a frosty or two just for some cold..
but mostly just dont let him get the wyvs
ok if u put it that wayyy UD can do absolutly nothing aginst mass wyvs. but tryy to OUT MASS his units either with fiends or with destros.Originally Posted by killshift
______________________________sig max is 450x75
ghouls+shees+some fiends+DL == GG
Mass fiends until they reach critical mass (I'd say until they at least fill one control group). If he gets grunts at the start it only helps you since he'll be delaying the wyverns to get the early ground force and a small group of wyverns < fiends. If you have problems with grunts early on you can get CL + beetles for some early meat/units. If you do get CL first get DK second. Nova isn't too necessary for the wyverns once your fiends reach a large enough number because they'll just crumble on their own to fiend focus fire anyway.
It's also a good idea to hit them somewhat early, ideally when they're at the point where they're switching to wyverns and thus are kind of short on resources/units. If you've been massing like you should have, you should have enough fiends to overpower him or at least do a decent amount of damage.
Fiends with burrow, slow tech to destroyers and Frost Wyrms. You want to start harassing him once he reaches Tier 2. This way you may be able to pick off burrows or wandering Wyverns. The key is to keep the number of Wyvs he has down as low as possible. A low number of fiends will beat a low number of Wyverns, it's once there are a large number of Wyvs that it becomes hard to win since it's harder to heal your units. A slow tech (slow meaning as fast as you can tech without stopping fiend production until 50/50) to get a couple destroyers and one or two Frosties will help a lot, too.
Like someone said, mass fiends, some 2-3 necros for unholy frenzy with 2 stats. What's gonna be hard is small maps where orc can easily harrass undead. There's little you can do then. However, this is a large map, so you would be able to make quite a lot of fiends + necros.
If all things go well after attacking, add in a frosty and eventually two destroyers (to dispel wolves or enemy haze).
Use panda as second hero. Simply haze + bof and run away fast (buy pot of invincibility, invisibiliy pot or what not). All he's there for is haze+bof one or two times at least.
i play orc and we go tc second not sh, or maybe panda for haze/bof dual aoe with cL
i dunno but i played a game today verse Wyvern/Grunt with a BM/FS(i dont understand the hero choice tho) and i went CL/DK with fiends/destros/aboms and i whipped him pretty good, only suffered minor casualties. Oh and an expansion really really really really helps, cuz chances are ur orc freind might be doing a quick tech to wyvs while harassin, so try to expand very quick against him. Since UD techs pretty quick also, now that u have an exp you have an advantage over him, u can make a bigger army faster, and throw it at him harder, cuz u gots more gold. Anyways thats what i did and it worked for me, so maybe i was lucky, or maybe i figured out how to beat the wyvern problem.
Panda as 2nd hero as UD is pointless. It's just nuking bait seeing as it's slow and can't be healed. The whole reason UD stick to UD heroes is so they can keep them alive :P Also with the lich you get same AoE capabilities in 1 spell, it can be healed, and it can hit air units. You might not get the % miss anymore, but sheer damage is more important, as an Orc will TP before running away with Wyverns.Originally Posted by Venomosity
Also getting a temple just to get 2 necros to cast Frenzy is a waste of resources =[
People went SH before last patch when they made Hexed units coilable =[ I still see a lot of people go SH to try to pick off weak units and cast Healing Wave on the Wyvs. Also helps in longer battles when DK runs out of mana to abuse Hex.Originally Posted by WesTSiDE
You're right though, most Orc players have started going TC again vs UD, which is actually good for stun.
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