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Unread 06-07-2005, 03:16 PM   #21
CODEleatherFACE
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Against NE I really think mortars are very important. With exploding shell upgrade. also getting knights breakers priest etc, is really effective, although adding 3-4 grpyhons will only strengthen your army.
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Unread 06-07-2005, 04:27 PM   #22
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as an NE, i find gryphs to be a pain in the ass. the problem is that a normal human army with 2 gryphons is a PAIN because those 2 gryphons will cause a LOT of damage, and with holy light are very hard to kill- and with staff of sanctuary, you won't ever kill them, just make them leave the battlefield. and to have enough units to kill them, you need to significantly reduce your bear count.
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Unread 06-13-2005, 09:22 PM   #23
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If they don't have dryads, why not mass casters and knights? You get meat shields for the casters and decent damage output combined with healing, slow, innerfire, polymorph and you can focus the casters attack seeing as how heavy armour takes extra damage from magic.

I say you should have some rifles ready seeing as how the NE might start pumping out dryads.
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Unread 06-13-2005, 09:35 PM   #24
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my thoughs on this is get seige... a few knights and ghys + motors my personal exp wit ne is that i go seige wit knights n ghys = pwned the ne i dun know how or wat happen but when i use seige i use attk ground which is AOE so if u can take like half n sec n aim at a spot where it can effect bears n dyrads it will destroy both... n wit dyrads gone ghys r ez to own bears
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Unread 06-18-2005, 10:29 AM   #25
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Mortor owns dryads yes, but they arnt NE's only solution to air, just one of about 4. Hippos are pretty damn good, if they get 5 or 6 then anything you have in the air is wasted unless your quick with shackles and lag doesnt kill you Its just too hard to make gryphons work vs better NE players because they will pick the anti-air that you will have the most trouble countering...

As for bears, gryphons are good but I think that using sorcs and clap vs bears really owns them, they are worthless when dazed AND slowed, even if they have roar. Besides, with humans it is best to have long battles no matter what, with better mana regen from the AM, healing, slow, invis red units (which a preist can still heal while invis'd) a long battle is a good one.

Save gryphons for orcs, orcs REALLY have problems with gryphons and dragonhawks
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Unread 06-18-2005, 05:50 PM   #26
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Gryphon Riders arent a good choice to go against NE because they cost too much for their actual worth in battle against Bear/Drayd/Archer army. Against Orc, they are definately worth their cost, but against NE you can't just hope to win using a direct counter to bears, you have to mix 56 different units in the right quantities, and micro each individual unit perfectly to have even chances =)
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Unread 06-18-2005, 06:07 PM   #27
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I do gryphs all the time on fast expo maps, it works great. Knights beat dryads and hippos can be defeated with good micro.
But you can't do it out of one mine. It's not cost effective.
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Unread 06-19-2005, 05:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xequecal
Mass gryphons is bad because Human heroes are too vulnerable. Without units to block, you can not get away from a DH and Naga with boots of speed. The 270 speed MK will die in under five seconds. Or they just go solo DH, and meta solos all your gryphons and your heroes by itself.

Human Heroes are not at all as vulnerable as u think they are.a well made MK can easily outrun/stun and run away from NE heroes(and u can dispel entanglements with priests),an AM can run away as well.a BM will face problems but a pally can just turn on divine shield.By the time gryphons come,ur hero will normally be level 5+.and besides,u can easily nuke NE heroes with gryphons.The answer to why it is inadvisable to go mass gryphons against NE but not orc is that orcs dont have melee anti air and mass batriders can be killed w/the storm hammer upgrade.Also,the orcs dont have a ground unit that can target air,is immune to magic and has piercing damage with slow poison,which basically means that they dont have dryads,lol.
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Unread 06-27-2005, 04:34 AM   #29
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if ne goes hunt tech to bear it would be nice to mass gyp well if he gets drayd or anti air rifie or dragonhawkrider would be nice
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Unread 06-27-2005, 05:24 AM   #30
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i dont understand why people would go mass gryphs against ne.. i can see them doing it as a last resort but not doing it knowing that they have dryads...
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Unread 06-27-2005, 03:43 PM   #31
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I did go NAGA + fast tech + some casters (mainly 2 sorc or so) and then mass air and indeed I did get a major gold advantage, I had 3 gold mines running and he just 1 ........ and I lost in the end of the game (20 minutes) 14000 gold 2 high upkeep and u see that's it fairly expensive 2 counter bears like that and the dryads I still owned....and didt do very much vs my mass air but it's indeed the goldpart thats hard....u need a player that didnt spot your expantion.....I got that expand right after I killed his hero (with the naga and slow its duable to just kill him and dont let him run) well naga is pretty vurnable vs DH 2 but just micro :P and hit and run and tp alot
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Unread 06-27-2005, 03:48 PM   #32
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but like I stated earlier I find NE imba with bears.....caus only way 2 win almost is have a gold advantage......only inso can win vs bears strat without gold advantage by just microing like hell and use invis a lot ..... I find inso also microing a lot better then the NE guy and saving a lot more units and just barely wins the match.....it keeps difficult and the blizzard + bolt + slow + rifles is very hard to micro good .....and dont lose your low hp units fast....
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Unread 06-27-2005, 05:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy_Saber
many reasons
hippos
dyrads
archers
crow form dotts
why go mass air vs a race that has mass peircing?
yeah, but orc goes mass wind raiders against elf, human goes mass gyros, and ud goes mass gargs. so what?
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Unread 06-27-2005, 11:08 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodmage16
but like I stated earlier I find NE imba with bears.....caus only way 2 win almost is have a gold advantage......only inso can win vs bears strat without gold advantage by just microing like hell and use invis a lot ..... I find inso also microing a lot better then the NE guy and saving a lot more units and just barely wins the match.....it keeps difficult and the blizzard + bolt + slow + rifles is very hard to micro good .....and dont lose your low hp units fast....
Have to agree with that, bears are very powerfull and riduculus to beat when they have dual staffs of preservation. I think the best solution I have for bears/dryads are rifles/casters, MK-bolt/clap Am-Blizzard retrain, a few footies help too, just for meat. You have to spam out slow to all the bears untill the dryads run out of mana, then clap right in the middle of the bears and blizzard on that. Bears are almost worthless when slowed and clapped. As well as that you need to micro your rifles vs their dryads without getting them killed by bears AND deal with their heros. Even tho you need to out-micro them this is a way better solution to the normal dryads/bears strat that humans get vs NE. Gryphons are just not worth it, ever.
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Unread 06-28-2005, 11:33 PM   #35
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gryphons are great to cause them to make a counter (more dryads vs bear or hypos) which u can suprise counter their counter and gain advantage....but i usually try and end the game before this needs to happen unless its a map like GW or LT
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Unread 06-29-2005, 01:15 AM   #36
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Just dont get gryphons just pawn those bears with rifle/caster/morts and healing scrolls
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Unread 07-04-2005, 08:26 PM   #37
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Default GRYPH owns NE.

people don't use gryph becuz either they r noob or don't know how good gryphs are.
gryph does exactly 82 damage per hit against bear. 3~5 gryph will finish 10 bears less than 20 sec. The ONE and ONLY way the NE can kill gryph is using dryids, but then u use rifles(not knights) to fight him
so...the best tactics against DH, Panda, Bears, Dryid should be
AM, MK, 3~5Gryph, rifles, 3:3:4casters(sorcs,priests,Breaker).
NEVER use Knights, some ppl say knights r good against bear, but hack no!
just becuz bear and knights r both tier3 super melee units, doesn't mean knights r good. even if it means casters help him from the back, and u have super micro, it won't be good. it will be more like suicide. there r couple of reasons for it.
1) human tier3 is late compared to NE tier3, therefore number of units different.
2) even if u have exact about of knights and bear, it will be draw, but in terms of heros, NE will own.
3) there is a exact moment when NE players usually attack human's base, even 1 gryph can scare NE and make them run away and then make them come back after 5 min with dryad, by that time, u will be ready for them.
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Unread 07-04-2005, 09:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joonkimdds
gryph does exactly 82 damage per hit against bear.
No....

Gryphons' attack damage varies, just like every other unit. You cannot possibly calculate the exact amount of damage any unit does to another on every single hit. And with full upgrades, Gryphons do far more than 82 damage to Bears' heavy armour, so you basically just made that statistic up with no backing whatsoever.

Now, none of that changes the fact that Gryphons are obviously very good against Bears, but the problem arises when the NE player makes Dryads, Faerie Dragons, DoTTs in Crow Form, or an Archer/Hippogryph combo. Then Gryphons are terrible.
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Unread 07-04-2005, 09:39 PM   #39
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if i were making gryphons (and i played human for a while) i would never get more than 3. they're very good if there's just a few. Why?
1: They still do enough damage to counter the NE's bears pretty sufficiently for the gryph's worth
2: Most of their counters require a lot of the units. For example, 6 dryads will do nothing to 3 gryphs. The gryphons will simply ignore the dryads and focus on the bears, and a pally will heal the gryphons. Likewise, 6 hippogryphs will get slowed and focused on with WE's, rifles, sorcs, heros, etc.
3: With upgrades, pally, and even inner fire/scroll of protection, they will be very hard to kill
4: You should always have triple hero (am/mk/pally) with triple staff of sanctuary, so you should never actually lose a gryph- it should just have to leave the battle. That's not to mention the pally which is constantly healing the gryphs
5: The point of getting gryphs is that you're getting a balanced army. The reason why most HU's dont get them is because they don't want to upgrade to tier3. If you do, you should get pretty much everything at tier3. Pally, upgrades, staff of sanctuary, all that good stuff.
6: It's expensive, so get an expo.
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Unread 07-05-2005, 12:46 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladiator
if i were making gryphons (and i played human for a while) i would never get more than 3. they're very good if there's just a few. Why?
1: They still do enough damage to counter the NE's bears pretty sufficiently for the gryph's worth
2: Most of their counters require a lot of the units. For example, 6 dryads will do nothing to 3 gryphs. The gryphons will simply ignore the dryads and focus on the bears, and a pally will heal the gryphons. Likewise, 6 hippogryphs will get slowed and focused on with WE's, rifles, sorcs, heros, etc.
3: With upgrades, pally, and even inner fire/scroll of protection, they will be very hard to kill
4: You should always have triple hero (am/mk/pally) with triple staff of sanctuary, so you should never actually lose a gryph- it should just have to leave the battle. That's not to mention the pally which is constantly healing the gryphs
5: The point of getting gryphs is that you're getting a balanced army. The reason why most HU's dont get them is because they don't want to upgrade to tier3. If you do, you should get pretty much everything at tier3. Pally, upgrades, staff of sanctuary, all that good stuff.
6: It's expensive, so get an expo.
thats some nice theorycraft. lol
I don't think I have ever once had three staff of sanctuaries. That would be 1750 gold in heroes and staves. Mass gryphs really aren't that bad against elf. Good micro > hypos, knights > dryads. The reason that you don't go gryphs is cost, nothing else. They are fairly effecient units as far as food goes, but they are not effecient costwise. If I'm playing LT and I have 2-3 mines I will go gryphs and it's nearly unbeatable, but if you do not do an expand + mass towers type strat it is not very realistic to get air IMO.
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